Horner under investigation

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Aty
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#331

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Bottom post of the previous page:

D/T 2024-03-14 15:58 (CET)
I didn't find anything of substance which would be considered as a new information. Suspended colleague is not happy with the investigative methodology and process for lack of transparency, and more. She purportedly states that she had followed procedure for complain submission, and then the surprising outcome. She has difficulty to accept that she is (obviously considering herself) the victim, yet she is the one who was suspended.

Several days ago there were accussations made in certain media, that the lawyer who actually investigated the complain, was the one who was hired and paid for services by Thai owner. Whether this is true, like most of it, is hard to tell. At the end, whether there were two interpretations of the incident (reports), or just one, is anyone's guess.

The story is being pushed off the front burner. What happend with the intention to appeal the outcome is not clear. Maybe if she had received some financial compensation, that could have something to do with it (file closing). Public is left guessing. I doubt anything will change.
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#332

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago It is Thursday. Is there actually any news this week on this story? I see lots of articles but nothing new.
according to Autosprint Verstappen will go to Aston Martin... they claim that several key figures from the technical side of RBR are already on the move to Aston Martin and that he's going to follow them because he doesn't believe that Red Bull can come up with a good engine for 2026 and instead he trusts Honda... I think that the bottom line of all this saga is that yes there is a power struggle between the minority shareholder and the majority shareholder, that they might find a solution in the end but that is not the point for the Verstappens as they don't believe that the Red Bull - Ford package for 2026 will be good enough

https://autosprint.corrieredellosport. ... n_martin
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#333

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P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 1 month ago
Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago It is Thursday. Is there actually any news this week on this story? I see lots of articles but nothing new.
according to Autosprint Verstappen will go to Aston Martin... they claim that several key figures from the technical side of RBR are already on the move to Aston Martin and that he's going to follow them because he doesn't believe that Red Bull can come up with a good engine for 2026 and instead he trusts Honda... I think that the bottom line of all this saga is that yes there is a power struggle between the minority shareholder and the majority shareholder, that they might find a solution in the end but that is not the point for the Verstappens as they don't believe that the Red Bull - Ford package for 2026 will be good enough

https://autosprint.corrieredellosport. ... n_martin
Thanks. Interesting stuff. All rumors I gather.

I wonder who would be the easiest guy to work with: 1) Christian Horner, 2) Toto Wolff, 3) Lawrence Stoll ?
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#334

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Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 1 month ago
Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago It is Thursday. Is there actually any news this week on this story? I see lots of articles but nothing new.
according to Autosprint Verstappen will go to Aston Martin... they claim that several key figures from the technical side of RBR are already on the move to Aston Martin and that he's going to follow them because he doesn't believe that Red Bull can come up with a good engine for 2026 and instead he trusts Honda... I think that the bottom line of all this saga is that yes there is a power struggle between the minority shareholder and the majority shareholder, that they might find a solution in the end but that is not the point for the Verstappens as they don't believe that the Red Bull - Ford package for 2026 will be good enough

https://autosprint.corrieredellosport. ... n_martin
Thanks. Interesting stuff. All rumors I gather.

I wonder who would be the easiest guy to work with: 1) Christian Horner, 2) Toto Wolff, 3) Lawrence Stoll ?
I'd say that the least difficult should be Christian Horner, the other two seem both tougher cookies than Horner, and on top of that they are both shareholders in the team. Even Autosprint mentions the fact that at Aston Martin Lawerence Stroll decides everything...
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#335

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 1 month ago
Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 1 month ago
Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago It is Thursday. Is there actually any news this week on this story? I see lots of articles but nothing new.
according to Autosprint Verstappen will go to Aston Martin... they claim that several key figures from the technical side of RBR are already on the move to Aston Martin and that he's going to follow them because he doesn't believe that Red Bull can come up with a good engine for 2026 and instead he trusts Honda... I think that the bottom line of all this saga is that yes there is a power struggle between the minority shareholder and the majority shareholder, that they might find a solution in the end but that is not the point for the Verstappens as they don't believe that the Red Bull - Ford package for 2026 will be good enough

https://autosprint.corrieredellosport. ... n_martin
Thanks. Interesting stuff. All rumors I gather.

I wonder who would be the easiest guy to work with: 1) Christian Horner, 2) Toto Wolff, 3) Lawrence Stoll ?
I'd say that the least difficult should be Christian Horner, the other two seem both tougher cookies than Horner, and on top of that they are both shareholders in the team. Even Autosprint mentions the fact that at Aston Martin Lawerence Stroll decides everything...
I would agree with Horner and as mentioned perhaps its a shareholding thing. I would also imagine Stroll would be the most difficult. No t just the family connection and the fact Lance is the raison d'être, compounded by the investment money creating aspect. I recall watching something on TV involvingg a look behind the scenes at Aston F1 (it might even have been Drive to Survive.... on reflection I think I watched that episode as an evaluation of whether to watch more of that particular series of DTS.... I chose not to watch others). Stroll did indeed come across as the sole decision maker, yes taking on advice, but generally deciding what he wanted to do and often overlooking advice. I recall him bing present and chairing any meting of note and it was very clearly run as a "My way or the Highway" style. To do anything in that team would require Lawrence Stroll being on your side.

In fact I dont believe that he likes hearing negative stuff about his son, certainly from within. I have noticed that even Fernando, never one to be shy about making complaints previously, knows where the butter on his bread comes from, and is often uncharacteristically 'nice' with some of his observations, and is very quick to both help and certainly not criticise Lance's involvement. (A good example I recall was last year when Nando was saying how much the team missed the input and feedback of the Injured (with broken wrists) Lance. Even Fernando's on track acts are often to help Lance even to the sake of not challenging for positions. If Fernando is not in a position to win he seems to be happy to improve Lance's results. Lance often has parts first, even the better of strategy calls. Nando never complains.

Obviously Nando has mellowed with age and what he no longer needs to prove, but his mellowness has increased out of site since joining Aston / working for Stroll senior.

Sorry if that was a long winded way oif saying that Lawrence runs the team lock stock and barrell, his managers, even lead drivers all seem to be glorified 'Yes" men. As an employee, without 'Seniors' support you would need to be looking elsewhere for employment.

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#336

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#337

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This is a very interesting article from autosport plus, which I know most cannot access. We saw a change of tack from Horner in Jeddah, early in the weekend talking of Max being contractually sealed until 2028... by the end of the weekend that had become an if anyone is not happy or committed to Red Bull the team would never hold them against their will, be it driver, engineer or whoever. He also made mention of no one being bigger than the team. This article relates the story of another Spice Girl husband who fell out with his Team Manager and perhaps felt he was bigger than his team, in that case Manchester United..... that person being David Beckham.

It opens up a new option..... albeit one which very much revolves around how Horner's future itself is resolved.
Its a bit of a what if, maybe type article. I found it interesting so felt others might too....
The Beckham clues as to where Verstappen and Red Bull are heading
by Jonathan Noble
OPINION: The fallout from the Christian Horner investigation by Red Bull into alleged wrongdoing towards a female employee has engulfed Formula 1 and led to something of a power struggle within the team. This has triggered suggestions that Max Verstappen could walk.

But is there also a scenario in which he could be pushed?


Red Bull team principal Christian Horner’s post-Saudi words regarding Max Verstappen’s future offered a fascinating insight into the fast-changing dynamics between them. We had gone into the Jeddah weekend with speculation over Verstappen’s future at the world champion squad in overdrive.

Amid the fallout of the Christian Horner investigation, and some fiery remarks from Jos Verstappen about Red Bull being at risk of being “torn apart” if there was no change at the top, everything appeared to be pointing towards the world champion wanting out. But while Verstappen himself had not been totally emphatic about seeing out his contract until 2028 – only saying that it had been the “intention” in originally signing the deal – Horner was in no doubts that things were set in stone.

Asked in the official FIA press conference in Jeddah on Thursday about whether he was confident Verstappen would stay, Horner said: “I'm certain that he will. He's got a great team around him. He's got great faith in that team. And we've achieved an awful lot together. So he's committed to an agreement until 2028."

Fast forward to Saturday night, though, and the messaging had changed a great deal. From having no doubts about the commitment to see out the deal, Horner was suddenly making it clear that he would not force anyone to remain if they wanted to leave.

“If an individual doesn't want to be in the team, we don't force people to be here,” he said. “People are here – and they work in this sport, in this team, because they want to be here, because they're passionate about what they do. It's that passion that enables us to deliver not average results but exceptional results.”

But in perhaps his most telling remark about things, he stated: “No individual is bigger than the team.” Those words hark back to the famous declaration of former Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson, who himself went through his own ‘player versus team’ conflict in 2003 with David Beckham.

Back then Beckham was the megastar in the squad but, as his global celebrity grew, so Ferguson grew weary of what he felt was a lack of the right attitude from the player on and off the pitch. The situation reached a denouement after Manchester United were knocked out of the FA Cup by Arsenal in 2003. In a post-match tirade in the dressing room about what had gone wrong, Ferguson kicked a boot that hit Beckham in the face – leaving a cut above his eye.

Attempts to patch things up in a subsequent meeting did not work and, after Beckham appeared in public with an Alice band to highlight his injury, things had reached a critical point. At that moment, Ferguson knew that he was in a situation where a player felt he was bigger than the club – and that could not be tolerated. Later that summer Beckham was gone.

In his autobiography, Ferguson wrote: “It was in those days that I told the board David had to go. My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, ‘The moment the manager loses his authority, you don’t have a club. The players will be running it, and then you’re in trouble.’


Amidst all the speculation over Verstappen’s future as other teams look to capitalise on the opportunity to get hold of him, there is an undeniable ace that Red Bull and Horner have up their sleeve: their F1 car


“David thought he was bigger than Alex Ferguson. There is no doubt about that in my mind. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Alex Ferguson or Pete the Plumber. The name of the manager is irrelevant. The authority is what counts. You cannot have a player taking over the dressing room. Many tried. The focus of authority at Manchester United is the manager’s office. That was the death knell for him.”

We may not have had such a dressing room showdown at Red Bull yet, but it is obvious to think that Horner may feel that he is facing a case of his authority being challenged by his driver. While Verstappen Sr’s explosive remarks about Horner on the evening of the Bahrain Grand Prix may have been removed enough from the driver to not be his responsibility, there was no doubting the meaning behind the Dutchman’s defence of Helmut Marko over the Saudi weekend.

As news emerged of an investigation into Marko potentially leaking information to the media, and he went public that he risked suspension, Verstappen was quick to declare that if Red Bull’s motorsport advisor went, so too would he.

The repeated remarks on that front were clearly aimed at sending a message of the risk that Red Bull faced if Marko was pushed out. But equally, they may have been the catalyst for the change in tone from Horner himself, in terms of whether he felt Verstappen was now at the point where he felt he was bigger than the team.

Amidst all the speculation over Verstappen’s future as other teams look to capitalise on the opportunity to get hold of him, there is an undeniable ace that Red Bull and Horner have up their sleeve: their F1 car. With the rampant pace of the RB20 so far this year showing that the team’s understanding of the new ground effect rules remains unmatched, there is little doubt that a seat at Red Bull is the envy of almost every driver on the grid, so it would not be too difficult to get a top level replacement. As Horner himself said: “The best drivers always want to be in the best cars.”

So should Verstappen feel that he is better off elsewhere, or the teams feels it is a good time for a change, then there would be a level of assuredness that it would not be the end of Red Bull’s success. Could Verstappen win races in a Mercedes or Aston Martin next year? Probably. But could other top drivers be winning races in the successor to the RB20? Absolutely.

There are some big choices to be made by team and driver over the next few weeks, as we get to find out where the authority really lies inside Red Bull.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/the-b ... /10587210/

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#338

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As news emerged of an investigation into Marko potentially leaking information to the media, and he went public that he risked suspension
From what I have seen, Dr. Marko denied leak related charges (repeatedly). I also read somewhere that internal investigation who was the whistleblower is ongoing. I don't know who accused HM from leaking protected info, but when he was reinstated after meeting with his superior, he was asked and responded with there weren't legal grounds for my dismissal, so I am back.

Anyone can think about it whatever they like.

Unfortunately I didn't bookmarked one article from about a week ago writen by a professional journalist outside F1, with a name which I guess could be Dutch. He said that he had access to and read all available message. The content was such, he said, that it's beyond his comprehension that CH still has a job. It was that bad.

The appeal is on, but it would be good if this we could put behind us and move on.
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#339

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 1 month ago
As news emerged of an investigation into Marko potentially leaking information to the media, and he went public that he risked suspension
From what I have seen, Dr. Marko denied leak related charges (repeatedly). I also read somewhere that internal investigation who was the whistleblower is ongoing. I don't know who accused HM from leaking protected info, but when he was reinstated after meeting with his superior, he was asked and responded with there weren't legal grounds for my dismissal, so I am back.

Anyone can think about it whatever they like.

Unfortunately I didn't bookmarked one article from about a week ago writen by a professional journalist outside F1, with a name which I guess could be Dutch. He said that he had access to and read all available message. The content was such, he said, that it's beyond his comprehension that CH still has a job. It was that bad.

The appeal is on, but it would be good if this we could put behind us and move on.
we got to a stage that I no longer believe a single word of what Dutch and Austrian media are reporting, I'm sorry but in my eyes they lost any credibility, I think that it is plain to see that someone is playing with media leaking information day in day out and that almost all of such information proves to be incorrect... who could be leaking to Dutch and Austrian media? could it be that it's the Verstappens and Marko (and maybe Toto)?

But I have a bigger question: why all the media in the world are very cautious about this story (and they treat it as just a power struggle within Red Bull) and it's only Dutch and Austrian media that keep on hitting hard with accusations that so far have never been proven? why is that I ask? I read Italian and English media and it doesn't look as if Red Bull is falling apart and Horner is the next Jack the Ripper, why is that? is it because maybe it is plain to see that so far Horner has been dragged into the mud only for a power struggle? Are we all so sure that it's morally acceptable what is happening? Horner might not be my favorite F1 personality but so far he has done nothing wrong (it's not that he's guilty until he's proven innocent, it's the other way round) yet he is daily on the news accused of some very serious crimes...

I must confess that at this stage I'd be happy if Marko and the Verstappen left Red Bull, frankly it is beyond my understanding how any team would wish to go into business with any of them, Max is a great driver (and possibly an ok guy) but his dad is toxic, same as Marko, and I think that both Jos as well as Marko are using him.
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#340

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P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 1 month ago
Aty wrote: 1 month ago
As news emerged of an investigation into Marko potentially leaking information to the media, and he went public that he risked suspension
From what I have seen, Dr. Marko denied leak related charges (repeatedly). I also read somewhere that internal investigation who was the whistleblower is ongoing. I don't know who accused HM from leaking protected info, but when he was reinstated after meeting with his superior, he was asked and responded with there weren't legal grounds for my dismissal, so I am back.

Anyone can think about it whatever they like.

Unfortunately I didn't bookmarked one article from about a week ago writen by a professional journalist outside F1, with a name which I guess could be Dutch. He said that he had access to and read all available message. The content was such, he said, that it's beyond his comprehension that CH still has a job. It was that bad.

The appeal is on, but it would be good if this we could put behind us and move on.
we got to a stage that I no longer believe a single word of what Dutch and Austrian media are reporting, I'm sorry but in my eyes they lost any credibility, I think that it is plain to see that someone is playing with media leaking information day in day out and that almost all of such information proves to be incorrect... who could be leaking to Dutch and Austrian media? could it be that it's the Verstappens and Marko (and maybe Toto)?

But I have a bigger question: why all the media in the world are very cautious about this story (and they treat it as just a power struggle within Red Bull) and it's only Dutch and Austrian media that keep on hitting hard with accusations that so far have never been proven? why is that I ask? I read Italian and English media and it doesn't look as if Red Bull is falling apart and Horner is the next Jack the Ripper, why is that? is it because maybe it is plain to see that so far Horner has been dragged into the mud only for a power struggle? Are we all so sure that it's morally acceptable what is happening? Horner might not be my favorite F1 personality but so far he has done nothing wrong (it's not that he's guilty until he's proven innocent, it's the other way round) yet he is daily on the news accused of some very serious crimes...

I must confess that at this stage I'd be happy if Marko and the Verstappen left Red Bull, frankly it is beyond my understanding how any team would wish to go into business with any of them, Max is a great driver (and possibly an ok guy) but his dad is toxic, same as Marko, and I think that both Jos as well as Marko are using him.
I do respect your opinion, but my mind is empty. The case is so convoluted and copious speculations make whole case rather tiring.
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#341

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Well, looks like she has filed an appeal at Red Bull, maintaining the process within the company: https://www.grandprix.com/news/horners- ... ppeal.html

Any reports of a criminal or civil case related to this?


Here is the Telegraph article: https://sports.yahoo.com/christian-horn ... 35368.html. I gather nothing has been confirmed as filed.
Last edited by Ruslan 1 month ago, edited 2 times in total.
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#342

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Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago Any reports of a criminal or civil case related to this?
Who cares?

This thread should be locked until anything ACTUALLY changes regarding the F1 drivers, or team management.
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#343

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DoubleFart wrote: 1 month ago
Ruslan wrote: 1 month ago Any reports of a criminal or civil case related to this?
Who cares?

This thread should be locked until anything ACTUALLY changes regarding the F1 drivers, or team management.
I care. This is far more interesting than the racing.
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#344

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The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
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#345

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

White six wrote: 1 month ago

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#346

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Red Bull GmbH said in a brief statement on February 28, before the start of the season, that the complainant had a right of appeal after the grievance was dismissed.
So, she is reportedly appealing (unconfirmed yet by RB).

I don't however understand mechanics of this case. It was widely reported that she was purportedly awarded large sums of money (from two sources), yet now she is lodging this appeal? Does this mean in reality there was no pay out? One would think if you accept 1 M, you also stop complaining and go away for good.

The truth in this case is really rare commodity.
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