2023 WHAT HAPPENS IN VEGAS STAYS IN VEGAS SIN CITY GP

[Michael Ferner]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Extremes? I really, REALLY don't think so!

Used to be, every aspiring driver had to show he was capable of being in control at all times to even only get his licence! This is not knitting for beginners, it's motor racing - MOTOR SPORT IS DANGEROUS!!

[Everso Biggyballies]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control.

In my opinion, if the driver's not in control then he has no business being on the track. Just my two cents.

i would not go that far. No need to go to extremes.

@Aty Are you suggesting Max WAS in control? Max being unable to keep ANY part of the car on the track suggests he had lost control of the car, whatever the mitigating circumstances of cold tyres and track plus the condition of the track surface (all of which he was aware of said likleyhood.). Indeed, had Leclerc not taken evasive action and driven even further off the track in avoidance of Max, both Max and Leclerc would have been out on the spot. No win for Max and no 2nd place for Charles. Max in reality owes the fact he won the race to Charles being able to evade the technically out of control Red Bull. Leclerc left the track in avoidance of Max.... Max left the track because he could not control the car and keep it on the track.

Unless you are suggesting that Max deliberately drove off the track to force Charles wide, which is another kettle of fish altogether and more akin to something Schumacher might have done.

[DoubleFart]

Akin to Hamilton as well. COTA 2015 is calling.

[XcraigX]

Akin to Hamilton as well. COTA 2015 is calling.

While there are probably some good examples of Hamilton divebombing and pushing cars wide (or out of control), COTA 2015 was a bit different and does not seem comparable. I just watched the replay to refresh my memory.
Nico was trying to overtake Lewis on the outside, not a divebomb like Max did. Lewis had most of his car on the track through the end of the turn (only 2 weels outside the line, which would be legal). You can argue that maybe Lewis did it on purpose, but Nico was never ahead and the whole thing appears very different from what we saw in Vegas.

[Aty]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control.

In my opinion, if the driver's not in control then he has no business being on the track. Just my two cents.

i would not go that far. No need to go to extremes.

Are you suggesting Max WAS in control? Max being unable to keep ANY part of the car on the track suggests he had lost control of the car. Indeed, had Leclerc not taken evasive action and driven even further off the track in avoidance of Max, both Max and Leclerc would have been out on the spot. No win for Max and no 2nd place for Charles. Max in reality owes the fact he won the race to Charles being able to evade the technically out of control Red Bull. Leclerc left the track in avoidance of Max.... Max left the track because he could not control the car and keep it on the track.

Unless you are suggesting that Max deliberately drove off the track to force Charles wide, which is another kettle of fish altogether and more akin to something Schumacher might have done.

I am not suggesting anything of that kind. My suggestion to Michael is not to dwell in extreme positions such as - if the driver is not in control then he has no business being on the track.

Of course this proposition is questionable. Ambient conditions may prove quite often otherwise and beat best to the punch. (In re: Case of Norris in LV is one example.)

Think about his statement from position of ridiculous logic.

1. All driver on the track are always in control of their actions, says Michael. (Otherwise they would not be on the track).
2. It follows, if there is an incident, then driver has to accept responsibility for his intent to crush. Guilty. No need for investigation.


On serious note, of course we have bunch of very skilled people piloting those cars, but no one is perfect, and guys can make mistake when guided by instinct. In other cases ambient conditions take over, and one is a passenger to some extend. (That's how I interpret Max's drifting on the green tarmac with cold tires).

[erwin greven]

@Aty Are you suggesting Max WAS in control? Max being unable to keep ANY part of the car on the track suggests he had lost control of the car, whatever the mitigating circumstances of cold tyres and track plus the condition of the track surface (all of which he was aware of said likleyhood.). Indeed, had Leclerc not taken evasive action and driven even further off the track in avoidance of Max, both Max and Leclerc would have been out on the spot. No win for Max and no 2nd place for Charles. Max in reality owes the fact he won the race to Charles being able to evade the technically out of control Red Bull. Leclerc left the track in avoidance of Max.... Max left the track because he could not control the car and keep it on the track.

If Max was the only one who could not control his car in T1.
Still i think the penalties for leaving the track and/or forcing another driver off the track should be higher.

[Aty]

Still i think the penalties for leaving the track and/or forcing another driver off the track should be higher.

Why? Running at the edge is way of life in this sport.

I am not disturbed by occassional off due to high speed. If you however asking drivers to slow down to ensure they never leave the track with all 4 wheel, i wonder what kind of impact that would have on overtaking attempts. It would be one boring race to watch.

[John]

Still i think the penalties for leaving the track and/or forcing another driver off the track should be higher.

Why? Running at the edge is way of life in this sport.

I am not disturb by occassional off due to high speed. If you however asking drivers to slow down to ensure they never leave the track with all 4 wheel, i wonder what kind of impact that would have on overtaking attempts. It would be one boring race to watch.

Max running Charles off the track knowing full well he'd get a penalty less than his average winning margin isn't kosher.

Also Las Vegas facing a class action lawsuit only adds to the misery of the entire weekend. Bad PR all around.

[Everso Biggyballies]

A couple of Odds and Sods from the weekend

A few new records broken in Las Vegas. Of course Max features in many of them, along with Red Bull. No surprises there.

I guess the first one has an American flavour....

Max became the first man to ever win three Grands Prix in the same country in the one season with his three US victories in Miami, Austin and now Las Vegas.

It goes without saying that having won 16 of the last 17 races to take his tally for the year to 18 that has extended his own record for races won in a season. He got.the record last year with 15, having broken Vettel's 2013 record of 13. Even if he loses in Abu Dhabi his win rate will be over 81%

He became the most dominant driver ever in terms of wins to starts in a year, beating the previous 1952 benchmark of 75% set by Alberto Ascari.

Max's win in Vegas takes his win %-age this year to over 85 %. A win in Abu Dhabi will take it up another percent or two.

For the hell of it here are the top 5 in the race wins to starts in a year by %-age;

Pos. Driver. Year win / starts. %-age
1. Max Verstappen. 2023. 18/21 85.71%
2. Alberto Ascari.. 1952. 6/8. 75%
3. Michael Schumacher . 2004. 13/18. 72.22%
4. Jim Clark. 1963. 7/10. 70%
5. Sebastian Vettel. 2013. 13/19. 68,42%

FWIW Max is also 6th from last year with his 15/22 @ 68.18%

It was also Max's 20th podium for the season from 21 starts .... thats 95.24% no one else has ever won more than 17 in a season (Schumacher in 2002 won 17. Schu managed to do 17podiums /17races and so has a 100% podium year that Max hasnt. Yet.

George Russell is now guaranteed to finish eighth in the drivers' championship, the lowest position for a Mercedes driver since 2012 when Nico Rosberg was ninth and Michael Schumacher 13th.

Leclerc has now failed to win his last 12 starts from pole position, which is just one short of Rene Arnoux’s record set from 1979-82.

Las Vegas was GP# 1100

Incidentally Alonso is the only current driver who was alive the last time F1 raced in Las Vegas in 1982.

Lando Norris crashed out for his first retirement since Sao Paulo 2022. Until Vegas he had the second longest finishing streak behind Max

Oh and in Vegas Red Bull, with their 20th win of the season, broke Mercedes’ single-season record of 19 wins in a year (set in 2016).

[Aty]

Suggestions are appearing on the internet media to drop Monaco in favor of LV. (As expected.)

[Cheeveer]

Suggestions are appearing on the internet media to drop Monaco in favor of LV. (As expected.)

Mm, you could tell that F1 had bought a lot of accounts on social media over the weekend to amp up the hype. Anything to make their child look good.

[Aty]

Suggestions are appearing on the internet media to drop Monaco in favor of LV. (As expected.)

Mm, you could tell that F1 had bought a lot of accounts on social media over the weekend to amp up the hype. Anything to make their child look good.

Despite my feeling that race alone deserved better rating, I've voted 2/10. First time for me. I need some time to cool off.

OUTSIDE LINE: STANDING OVATION FOR LAS VEGAS GP ORGANISERS

https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/11/21 ... rganisers/

[erwin greven]

Max running Charles off the track knowing full well he'd get a penalty less than his average winning margin isn't kosher.

Exactly.

If there is one thing i still don't like about Max' driving style is the divebomb style he uses every time he wants to pass someone. If you are on the outside of him, it does not matter if you are half in front of him, next to him or already slightly behind. He won't give you room to stay on the track. Never. He adapted the Senna style - or you let me by, or we crash. A 5 second penalty does not mean anything, when you have the car to check out easily with 10 seconds or more.

[Star]

A couple of Odds and Sods from the weekend

A few new records broken in Las Vegas. Of course Max features in many of them, along with Red Bull. No surprises there.

I guess the first one has an American flavour....

Max became the first man to ever win three Grands Prix in the same country in the one season with his three US victories in Miami, Austin and now Las Vegas.

It goes without saying that having won 16 of the last 17 races to take his tally for the year to 18 that has extended his own record for races won in a season. He got.the record last year with 15, having broken Vettel's 2013 record of 13. Even if he loses in Abu Dhabi his win rate will be over 81%

He became the most dominant driver ever in terms of wins to starts in a year, beating the previous 1952 benchmark of 75% set by Alberto Ascari.

Max's win in Vegas takes his win %-age this year to over 85 %. A win in Abu Dhabi will take it up another percent or two.

For the hell of it here are the top 5 in the race wins to starts in a year by %-age;

Pos. Driver. Year win / starts. %-age
1. Max Verstappen. 2023. 18/21 85.71%
2. Alberto Ascari.. 1952. 6/8. 75%
3. Michael Schumacher . 2004. 13/18. 72.22%
4. Jim Clark. 1963. 7/10. 70%
5. Sebastian Vettel. 2013. 13/19. 68,42%

FWIW Max is also 6th from last year with his 15/22 @ 68.18%

It was also Max's 20th podium for the season from 21 starts .... thats 95.24% no one else has ever won more than 17 in a season (Schumacher in 2002 won 17. Schu managed to do 17podiums /17races and so has a 100% podium year that Max hasnt. Yet.

George Russell is now guaranteed to finish eighth in the drivers' championship, the lowest position for a Mercedes driver since 2012 when Nico Rosberg was ninth and Michael Schumacher 13th.

Leclerc has now failed to win his last 12 starts from pole position, which is just one short of Rene Arnoux’s record set from 1979-82.

Las Vegas was GP# 1100

Incidentally Alonso is the only current driver who was alive the last time F1 raced in Las Vegas in 1982.

Lando Norris crashed out for his first retirement since Sao Paulo 2022. Until Vegas he had the second longest finishing streak behind Max

Oh and in Vegas Red Bull, with their 20th win of the season, broke Mercedes’ single-season record of 19 wins in a year (set in 2016).

I love all the stats ta I am honestly surprised that Hamilton isn't in that top 5. For someone who has won as many titles as he has and has been called a GOAT, his win ratio clearly isn't as good as you'd expect is it?

Nice to see Seb there of course

[Star]

Max running Charles off the track knowing full well he'd get a penalty less than his average winning margin isn't kosher.

Exactly.

If there is one thing i still don't like about Max' driving style is the divebomb style he uses every time he wants to pass someone. If you are on the outside of him, it does not matter if you are half in front of him, next to him or already slightly behind. He won't give you room to stay on the track. Never. He adapted the Senna style - or you let me by, or we crash. A 5 second penalty does not mean anything, when you have the car to check out easily with 10 seconds or more.

I agree, I used to think it was because he was so young and that he'd hopefully grow out of it. No such luck then

[XcraigX]

A couple of Odds and Sods from the weekend

A few new records broken in Las Vegas. Of course Max features in many of them, along with Red Bull. No surprises there.

I guess the first one has an American flavour....

Max became the first man to ever win three Grands Prix in the same country in the one season with his three US victories in Miami, Austin and now Las Vegas.

It goes without saying that having won 16 of the last 17 races to take his tally for the year to 18 that has extended his own record for races won in a season. He got.the record last year with 15, having broken Vettel's 2013 record of 13. Even if he loses in Abu Dhabi his win rate will be over 81%

He became the most dominant driver ever in terms of wins to starts in a year, beating the previous 1952 benchmark of 75% set by Alberto Ascari.

Max's win in Vegas takes his win %-age this year to over 85 %. A win in Abu Dhabi will take it up another percent or two.

For the hell of it here are the top 5 in the race wins to starts in a year by %-age;

Pos. Driver. Year win / starts. %-age
1. Max Verstappen. 2023. 18/21 85.71%
2. Alberto Ascari.. 1952. 6/8. 75%
3. Michael Schumacher . 2004. 13/18. 72.22%
4. Jim Clark. 1963. 7/10. 70%
5. Sebastian Vettel. 2013. 13/19. 68,42%

FWIW Max is also 6th from last year with his 15/22 @ 68.18%

It was also Max's 20th podium for the season from 21 starts .... thats 95.24% no one else has ever won more than 17 in a season (Schumacher in 2002 won 17. Schu managed to do 17podiums /17races and so has a 100% podium year that Max hasnt. Yet.

George Russell is now guaranteed to finish eighth in the drivers' championship, the lowest position for a Mercedes driver since 2012 when Nico Rosberg was ninth and Michael Schumacher 13th.

Leclerc has now failed to win his last 12 starts from pole position, which is just one short of Rene Arnoux’s record set from 1979-82.

Las Vegas was GP# 1100

Incidentally Alonso is the only current driver who was alive the last time F1 raced in Las Vegas in 1982.

Lando Norris crashed out for his first retirement since Sao Paulo 2022. Until Vegas he had the second longest finishing streak behind Max

Oh and in Vegas Red Bull, with their 20th win of the season, broke Mercedes’ single-season record of 19 wins in a year (set in 2016).

I love all the stats ta I am honestly surprised that Hamilton isn't in that top 5. For someone who has won as many titles as he has and has been called a GOAT, his win ratio clearly isn't as good as you'd expect is it?

Nice to see Seb there of course

In order to make the list above, you need a season where you absolutely trounced the field and your team mate together. Hamilton has never done that. The closest he came were a couple years with Bottas (2019 and 2020), but Bottas was able to pull out enough wins to keep him out of top 5 territory. Most other seasons, Vettel, Ricciardo, and of course Rosberg took a decent number of wins.