Red Bull - Porsche deal: Aaaaaan its is gone!!

[erwin greven]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Concerning politics, you need to know Porsche's history. Some people have problems with that. (On You Tube was this specific historical topic under discussion just recently.)

I know that most fans not even know that McLaren ran for years a Porsche engine. And because of the rebranding to TAG-Heurer.

[Everso Biggyballies]

Porsche wanted to enter F1 as an owner of the team, and obviously, they wanted to take it gradually. Why would otherwise a PU supplier ask for 50% ownership rights? The management framework under Porsche governance would almost certainly change.

(Probably sans Mr. Horner.)

It appears the team is however not on sale (to a manufacturer).

It appears the team is however not on sale (to a manufacturer).

I wonder if an investment firm made a quiet deal with rights for first to offer when the time comes. Concerning politics, you need to know Porsche's history. Some people have problems with that. (On You Tube was this specific historical topic under discussion just recently.)

I am quite aware of Porsche's motor sports history. A legendary team of great success..... in Sports cars.

We are talking F1 here, a category Porsche have also flitted in and out of over the years. Not many years at all as a manufacturer. Arguably 2 or 3 years in which they enjoyed limited success.

To remind you of their F1 history wont take too long..... They only entered 31 GP as a works team. Although they had appeared in the late fifties that was more often than not the RSK Sports car run in GPs by Privateers. (mainly Ecurie Maarsbergen for Godin de Beaufort) They did enter Monaco in 1959 as Porsche KG, with a 718 for von Tripps.... unsuccessfully. In 1960 they entered the Italian GP with two cars for Hermann and Barth..... they finished 6th and 7th of 10 finishers. But they scored a point.

In 1961, following the change of regulations in F1, (sound familiar? ) the official Porsche team decided to enter the F1 world championship full-time, with Jo Bonnier and Hans Hermann as drivers, joined by Dan Gurney, They enjoyed some success towards the year end with 3 x 2nd places. In 1962 they continued and scored their only win as a constructor at the French GP. They scored a further 3rd placed podium.

At the end of the season, new regulatory changes were announced..... Porsche believing that its car would no longer be competitive, decides to withdraw. Carel de Beaufort continued as a privateer with a 718 until 1964 when sadly he died during the German GP.

That is it as an F1 constructor. They went back to Sports Cars to build their legend.

Of course they indirectly became involved in F1 in 1983 as the builder of the TAG funded and badged engine for McLaren that was very successful. That lasted until 1987.

Porsche did return to F1 as an engine supplier in 1991 for Arrows Footwork, but the engine was very heavy, and combined with the Arrows Chassis it was a failure and the cars suffered engine related failures in each of the few races they ran.

So for all their Motorsport legend F1 and Porsche never gelled as a constructor, and indeed they blew in and blew out in that guise depending on whether they felt the engine rules suited them. Indeed they enjoyed success as an engine builder in one joint project with TAG.

As for Red Bull, they have taken a basically failed F1 manufacturer team and have now turned it around and become one of the top teams in F1 by virtue of good staff good management and minimal interference from shareholders not involved day to day. I dont like Horner as a person, nor do I like many of the Red Bull ways, but their success under his guidance as the Team Principal cannot be denied. RBR work best with Horner running it commercially, Newey running it technically and doing so without outside or shareholder procrastinating interference.

If it aint broke dont fix it.

They dont need Porsche or their 50% involvement. That flies in the face of their philosophy and success. Porsche have indicated they want a certain level of control in whatever level of operation they enter be it maybe short term as an engine supplier or longer term as team in their own right.

When the Porsche Board determine what that strategy might be. Either as an engine supplier.... or as I suggested, if they want more control maybe with the purchase of a team such as Williams, a team that is for sale if the money is right. All the Porsche Board have to decide is how badly they want to be in F1(ie what level of investment they are willing to put up) and in what status.... constructor / team owner or engine supplier.

In the meantime Red Bull have an eager and seemingly willing engine partner in Honda, an engine parter they enjoy a great and successful working relationship with. Should Honda not decide to return to F1 with Red Bull, Red Bull have the organisation and personnel in place already at RBPT with their own engines already running on the dyno!

Red Bull do not need Porsche and indeed are better off without them.

[Aty]

One needs perspectives. Who we were and came from, who we are, and where we are going with the sport we love. RBR is now well off, there is no argument about it. The point is, with men of age at the helm, and the potential that this team falls yet again into some "investment" hands is not a future I consider a better option. It might be prosperous for some private accounts, but is it good for the F1? How many Latifi do we want? There are far too many of those already involved.
For me, Porsche continue to represent a respected and viable option for sport remain sport, an opportunity now lost due to some nonsensical excuses masquerading as an explanation. Get a perspective, RB.

[Aty]

The extra 1% scuppered a deal?

GPBlog:

The Milton Keynes-based racing stable and Porsche had been talking for months and a deal seemed imminent. Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz was a big proponent of bringing Porsche in and even reportedly dropped a lucrative bid from Honda. In the end, a kink in the deal did occur, as Porsche wanted to take 50 per cent of the shares. Red Bull, in turn, wanted to retain at least 51 per cent of the shares and thus control.

Horner is continues talking about it (as papers continue quoting him), so maybe one day, he will tell us the whole story.

[Everso Biggyballies]

I can totally understand the fight over 1 % as it (50-50) means shared control, something Red Bulll always said was not going to happen. Red Bull as a team has not been ever mentioned as for sale beyond minor shareholdings. Porsche's history of procrastination over decisions, and everything having to be approved by their board does not fit in with the autonomous quick reaction decisions that are part of Red Bull's philosophy and the background to their success.

There is no real story to tell. Red Bull not maintaining majority control was never an option.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record Red Bull dont need Porsche so have no need to compromise their well proven philosophy. Red Bull have their own in house already functioning engine department plus the likleyhood of a continuation with the equally well proven Honda relationship continuing beyond 2026.

If Porsche want that control then buy a team or start from scratch as Toyota did. And meet the challenges that in turn presents.

[erwin greven]

[Aty]

Not every team on the grid today started from scratch, yet Porsche has to? Are we having a little of double standard? I suggest slow re-reading what was said in that article I've posted earlier. There are inconsistencies in that story of size one can drive a 16 wheeler through. I am however suddenly getting lazy to deal with it. Any experienced police interrogator would hold Mr. Horner for a while in the interview room and demand cohesive and comprehensive explanation that makes sense. (I like crimi stories, in the case you wondering). McLaren told Audi - we aren't for sale. It was quick surgical cut. Painful, but straight forward.
Not so at RBR, and you can take it from there.

[Everso Biggyballies]

Not every team on the grid today started from scratch, yet Porsche has to? Are we having a little of double standard? I suggest slow re-reading what was said in that article I've posted earlier.

I think maybe you are guilty of not reading my post. I never said Porsche HAD to start from scratch, merely offered that as a secondary option beyond acquiring a team or control of a team as most teams have evolved from.
What I wrote:

If Porsche want that control then buy a team OR start from scratch as Toyota did. And meet the challenges that in turn presents.

There are inconsistencies in that story of size one can drive a 16 wheeler through. I am however suddenly getting lazy to deal with it. Any experienced police interrogator would hold Mr. Horner for a while in the interview room and demand cohesive and comprehensive explanation that makes sense. (I like crimi stories, in the case you wondering). McLaren told Audi - we aren't for sale. It was quick surgical cut. Painful, but straight forward.
Not so at RBR, and you can take it from there.

As has been said before Porsche misunderstood the Red Bull set up and the deal Red Bull were prepared to offer. Red Bull were prepared to divulge an equal share of their RBPowertrain Technology (Their engine division) but not the entire racing team. Porsche had thought they were negotiating for the whole set up..... They were informed that Red Bull were not prepared to sell a 50% share of their entire team, but they were prepared to do so with the engine division. No secret agendas or Horner subterfuge.

Sounds similar to the Ford and Ferrari negotiations where back in the sixties Ford approached Ferrari to buy his company. Ford thought this included the racing team but Enzo never had any intention of selling the Scuderia. His interest was purely selling the Road Car division. Ford on realising they were not buying any part of the race team then set up their own operation to produce the GT40.

[Aty]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. I am inclined not to be overly trustful of news printed in British media quoting Mr. Horner.

[DoubleFart]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. I am inclined not to be overly trustful of news printed in British media quoting Mr. Horner.

Your anti-British sentiment is getting tiresome.

[Aty]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation. I am inclined not to be overly trustful of news printed in British media quoting Mr. Horner.

Your anti-British sentiment is getting tiresome.

Noted, I am sorry you feel that way, but don't take it personally, please.

[Aty]

I gather both VAG-owned brands (Audi and Porsche) might need to form a partnership with existing teams or perhaps even outright purchase one if they want in. The ownership of the F1 seems content with ten teams, at least for now. I am not sure what role FiA plays in that decision process. Planning a new (11th) team from scratch makes no sense, at least on the surface. No one will spend €1 Billion on a team which may or may not get licence to race.

[Aty]

Grave concerns about Red Bull owner’s health

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... 7s_health/

A reporter for the major Austrian newspaper Kronen Zeitung agrees that there are “great concerns” about Mateschitz’s health, who has not been seen publicly for “months”.

“Insiders report that he has not even been available to his closest employees lately,” the newspaper added.

[Aty]

Porsche:

Double-digit growth in home region (Europe)

and

slight uptic

globally.

...all without RB and Mr. Horner's wisdom.

In current climate, not bad performance at all.

[Aty]

FIA: PORSCHE ARE STILL IN DISCUSSIONS WITH F1 TEAMS

https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/10/20 ... -f1-teams/

I am pleased, however not sure McLaren is, or whether it matters at all if they are or aren't.

[Everso Biggyballies]

They wont be in discussion with McLaren. McLaren only recently said that the McLaren Group (ie the car division and the Race team are not for sale at any price.... the reasons being the same as Red Bull.... they want control of their businesses and the race team and road car division feed off each other and cannot be separated from the Group.

They are no longer in the financial problem they were in before (during Covid) and as a business id about to turn a profit.

Of course there is nothing to say that if Porsche were to set up as an engine supplier that McLaren would not be interested in that from 2026. (McLaren's existing contract with Mercedes will expire then.)

McLaren admits they had discussions with Audi earlier this year but told Audi they were not under any circumstances for sale. Like Red Bull they are not interested in any deal with anyone that does not leave them in full control of their businesses.

This below outlines some facts about the current health of McLaren Racing, and why it was not interesterd in Audi. And this will be why they are not interested in selling to Porsche. Porsche want a majority share. As Brown says.... "there is no conversation to be had"


Brown affirms McLaren is not for sale. Why McLaren rejected Audi’s takeover effort

McLaren Racing is an entity that, technically speaking, falls under the McLaren Group, and is the company that operates the Formula 1, IndyCar Series, Formula E, and Extreme E programmes.

It is 70 percent owned by McLaren Group and 30 percent by MSP Sports Capital. That slice of the pie was sold off in December 2020 in a deal that valued the team at £560 million.

McLaren Group is the sole owner of McLaren Automotive, the company which builds luxury road cars. Its majority shareholder is Bahrain’s Mumtalakat holding company.

“Before we brought in the investment to Racing, it was tough economically,” Zak Brown, McLaren Racing CEO, said of the financial position McLaren Group found itself in at the start of 2020.

“But now that we have the investors in, we’re doing really well.

“We’re cashflow positive, we’re self-sustaining, we’re in great shape.

“Hence, our earlier comment; about being able to make performance-based decisions father than financially based decisions.
“Obviously, I’ve got a business to run, which I have to be economically responsible, but I’m in a position to be able to make investments if I think that’s going to drive performance.

“We’re our own our own business, our own entity,” Brown continued of Racing’s position within the broader Group.

“What happens in Automotive is a totally separate company. We’re a self-contained, cashflow positive, soon-to-be profitable, racing team, so we’re in great economic health.”

While there is a commonality between the McLaren Racing board and that of the broader Group, Brown’s operation is free to march to its own tune.

There is a deep seeded relationship with McLaren Automotive, but that is, in a corporate sense, arm’s length from the race team.

“We share a brand, and Michael Leiters, who is CEO [of Automotive] and I have an outstanding relationship,” Brown explained.

“So there’s a tremendous amount of cross-marketing we do because we have common customers; people that buy McLaren Automotive cars are passionate about Formula 1, and Formula 1 fans are typically passionate about sports cars, so there’s a tremendous amount of synergy there.”

However, that synergy does not stretch to shared budgets, with the income for Racing remaining firming in that silo; Brown described it as a “strategic alliance” between the two entities.

The Automotive side of the business has recently launched the Artura, a car that only went into production this year after being delayed from the end of last year – due to the global ‘chip shortage’.

Last November, McLaren Group denied reports claiming it had been sold to Audi. Discussions did take place, but a deal could not be struck.

As the shop window for McLaren’s road-going products, retaining the Racing business (and its overall control) is therefore critical to the Group.

While it can afford to sell off a stake as it can, raising cash for the business, it will not lose overall control.

“McLaren Group and its majority shareholder, Mumtalakat, and the second largest shareholder, TAG Group – Mansour Ojjeh’s family office, if you like – are very passionate about the racing team and had or have no interest in giving up majority control.

“And ultimately, that’s what Audi was interested in. It was a level of ownership that McLaren Group, and for that matter MSP Sports, had no interest in. That’s ultimately why those conversations were brought to an end.”

“If anyone wants to have a conversation that is different than that, then there’s no conversation to be had.”

That is from a longer article just 2 days ago.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2022/10/18/in ... er-effort/