The Fastlane Motorsports Forum

Bottom post of the previous page:

Hard to say the FW16 was a bad car since Damon Hill nearly won the WDC with it. With Senna racing the entire year, there is no doubt he would have had another title.
However, due to the aforementioned instability, it should not be at the top. I would put it below the MP4/8 (and above the MP4/7).

I don't buy the whole thing of Senna guaranteed to get the title.

Schumacher was DSQ from so many races, the Hockenheim fire may not have happened, Hill had iirc 7 points more than Senna after three races. 7 points was a lot back then - two Senna wins to Schumacher seconds.

XcraigX wrote: ↑5 years ago Hard to say the FW16 was a bad car since Damon Hill nearly won the WDC with it. With Senna racing the entire year, there is no doubt he would have had another title.
However, due to the aforementioned instability, it should not be at the top. I would put it below the MP4/8 (and above the MP4/7).

The FW16 that Senna drove was a bad car. He never drove the much developed and improved version. I don’t necessarily agree that Senna would have won the title in 1994, for the reasons that @DoubleFart says, but he would have definitely mounted a challenge. But that’s speculation rather that fact.

Indeed if we are judging the cars Senna actually drove, the FW16 Williams he had the use of was a relative shitbox compared to the 16B spec.

kals wrote: ↑5 years ago The FW16 that Senna drove was a bad car. He never drove the much developed and improved version.

Everso Biggyballies wrote: ↑5 years ago Indeed if we are judging the cars Senna actually drove, the FW16 Williams he had the use of was a relative shitbox compared to the 16B spec.

So are we to assume Williams would never develop it to 16B spec if Senna had remained their #1 driver?


So where do you gents rank it? You've both said it was bad, but didn't give context. Below the Tolemans? Betwixt them and the Loti somewhere? Please share!

XcraigX wrote: ↑5 years ago

kals wrote: ↑5 years ago The FW16 that Senna drove was a bad car. He never drove the much developed and improved version.

Everso Biggyballies wrote: ↑5 years ago Indeed if we are judging the cars Senna actually drove, the FW16 Williams he had the use of was a relative shitbox compared to the 16B spec.

So are we to assume Williams would never develop it to 16B spec if Senna had remained their #1 driver?

That’s irrelevant as Senna died.

XcraigX wrote: ↑5 years agoSo where do you gents rank it? You've both said it was bad, but didn't give context. Below the Tolemans? Betwixt them and the Loti somewhere? Please share!

Second from the bottom, so one above the 1983 Toleman.

XcraigX wrote: ↑5 years ago
So are we to assume Williams would never develop it to 16B spec if Senna had remained their #1 driver?


So where do you gents rank it? You've both said it was bad, but didn't give context. Below the Tolemans? Betwixt them and the Loti somewhere? Please share!

Of course Williams were working on a 16B upgrade as soon as it became apparent the 16 was a dog. The fact it was on track by July, and a major development over the 16 makes me think work was well underway on the 16B from early in the year.
I would place the 16 a little higher than @kals but only a position or two, behind the 97T

Aside from @kals wanting to put the FW16 pretty much plum last, most of you are kind of looking around the Lotuses and the MP4/8.

So, in the interests of neutrality, I'm going to slot the 1994 car just below the equally flawed 1993 McLaren. Senna's performances in the first few races of 1994 were - at worst - second best to Schumacher (even if they didn't turn into results) and Damon Hill was winning races in this car before the 'B' spec was released, which then challenged for the championship right up to the wire.

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Let's conclude this now. We have all the cars on the board.
Is there anything here that you guys strongly disagree with? I'll allow each member to change ONE CAR only.
@XcraigX @kals @John @sadsac @Everso Biggyballies @caneparo @DoubleFart @Michkov @ReneLotus

I'd also put the FW16 pretty much last. It literally killed him (ergo, I think he'd prefer to drive pretty much anything else than it, were he to be given that knowledge), he struggled to drive it, and he wasn't around to see it improve - he had what he had.

No strong disagreements from me. Whether the Williams goes 7th or 8th is nothing I will lose sleep over even if I think the Williams FW16 as driven by Senna was probably not as good the FW16 that Damon won in, due to the ongoing development and no doubt some development 16B bits fitted.

@PTRACER - how does our list and ranking compare with Autosport.com’s?

We should bump the 97T, 99T and TG184 up a notch at expense of the FW16 (10th place then for the FW16). Other than that, I'm happy.

We should do another one after this, it was fun. Jim Clark, perhaps? Including his indycars, there's few epic machines there.

kals wrote: ↑5 years ago @PTRACER - how does our list and ranking compare with Autosport.com’s?

It really doesn't look too different, but we have rather differing opinions on the MP4/5, the MP4/8 and which Lotus is best.

As I was away a few days, let me weigh in with my opinion as well before finally closing.
Will post before tonight.

Having Prost would also be interesting.

1) 1988 McLaren
2) 1989 McLaren
3) 1990 McLaren
4) 1991 McLaren
5) 1986 Lotus
6) 1987 Lotus*
7) 1993 McLaren
1985 Lotus **
9) 1984 Toleman ***
10) 1992 McLaren
11) 1994 Williams ****
(12) 1983 Toleman)

* I won't have the 87 Lotus being a victim of its consistently reliable and good - yet not good enough - performances.

** could deliver a good result if reliable, but ultimately over-rated due to the eternal association with Senna's first win (which had less to do with the car, but more with Senna's driving)

*** Senna seemed to be at ease with this car, with good results. Small team, admirable results. Deserves a place above the 92 McLaren, which I associate with a beautiful somewhat dated house falling apart.

**** Over a lap it survived, but it failed in the races - eventually with fatal consequences.

I would still put the MP4/8 above the best lotus. But I’m not going to die if you don’t.

I agree this was a great thread topic. We could do it with a variety of multiple champs. Fangio. Schumacher. Prost. It would be a fun discussion.

@PTRacer