Supercars Gen 3 Discussion thread

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Re: Supercars Gen 3 Discussion thread

Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Gen3 engine details come to light.... no longer a 5 litre formula with different capacities for Ford and GM

Details have begun to emerge around what engines will run in the Gen3 era of Supercars .

Ford and General Motors products are set to be different in capacity, making for a challenge to ensure both sides of the brand divide are on level pegging.

Ford appears set to run a 5.4-litre; an already proven machine in other racing cars.

There’s been more intrigue around a new GM engine to power the highly anticipated Chevrolet Camaro Supercar. It’s understood both 5.7-litre and 6.2-litre options have been investigated.

5.7litres seems to be more in favour of the two, given the smaller difference in displacement to the Ford 5.4litre.

It seemed to be that at one stage engine prity was going to be abandoned, and to utilise a GT-style of solution with timed pit stops. Thankfully thaat idea seems to have been dismissed.

Both brand engines have undergone at least initial dyno testing so obviously the engine solution is further down the track than the lack of info forthcoming as indicating. Timing of and administration of engine prity is obviously one of the keys to the decision of when Gen 3 will happen, with three options seeming to be on the cards.... either as originally hoped, the start of the 2022 season, mid year or even put it off until 2023 for introduction.

Cost, reliability and parity are said to be the core pillars driving how Gen3 engines will ultimately look. They need to make some decisions relating to the capacity soon to get the engines built and developed in line with the chassis

Many of the teams seem to be suggeting a 2023 start would suit the intr better than the rush behind a start of 22 and the vagueness of a mid season launch of something requiring basically the whole field to release entirely new cars to meet the new regs whatever they might turn out to be.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Supercars set to begin Gen3 prototype testing in August

Supercars head of motorsport Adrian Burgess has revealed the category is planning to begin testing of its Gen3 prototypes in August.

It’s also been confirmed Supercars will test the cars behind closed doors at Sydney Motorsport Park.

Im sure its a bit later than hoped for, and just to add this is just the testing of the initial prototypes, not production. Triple Eight has put together the Camaro chassis, PACE Innovations has put together the Mustang chassis.

“Both of those chassis are identical in every way, shape, or form. So the two homologation teams, T8 and DJR, along with Supercars, are building the two prototypes.

Chassis for the teams to build and test are not likely until the new year, which looks like their initial objective of launching the new category with the new season wont happen, and a mid season or even 2023 start launch in competition is more realistic. Personally I dont see the benefits of a mid season launch of something as key as a complete new category that wont allow teams to run the older Gen 2 alongside. All teams have to be ready with the new cars built, tested and proven.

Another reason a 2023 launch would be more appropriate is tht the Mustang road car is due for relaunch with a potentially new bodyshape in late 2022, so why not wait and launch with a car that is more related to the shape of the road car than launch with something about to become obsolete and then have to go through all the aero parity homologation work on a new Mustangshape within 6 months. Doesnt make sense to do that.

They are still to confirm the exact engine details for each brand, (Ford and GM) along with other issues such as the gearshift mechanism (paddle or sequential stick etc). Many other parts are still in the tender process.

As said I am sure it is later in the year than hoped but at least it is a planned date (albeit a vague and as said 'hoped for' some time in August. )

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Post by Cheeveer » 1 year ago

So Supercars are uploading A LOT of old races from ca 2001-2005 on their Youtube page. Is any of those season worth watching?
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Cheeveer wrote:
1 year ago
So Supercars are uploading A LOT of old races from ca 2001-2005 on their Youtube page. Is any of those season worth watching?
Does the c. mean it includes 2006? ISTR that was a good one with a very tight finish. No names cos dont want to spoil it.

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Post by Cheeveer » 1 year ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 year ago
Cheeveer wrote:
1 year ago
So Supercars are uploading A LOT of old races from ca 2001-2005 on their Youtube page. Is any of those season worth watching?
Does the c. mean it includes 2006? ISTR that was a good one with a very tight finish. No names cos dont want to spoil it.
2006 was the first season I watched, remember we had a disagreement about Rick Kelly's conduct in the finale! You made me think twice about that one. :haha:

15 years ago now. :omg:
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Cheeveer wrote:
1 year ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 year ago
Cheeveer wrote:
1 year ago
So Supercars are uploading A LOT of old races from ca 2001-2005 on their Youtube page. Is any of those season worth watching?
Does the c. mean it includes 2006? ISTR that was a good one with a very tight finish. No names cos dont want to spoil it.
2006 was the first season I watched, remember we had a disagreement about Rick Kelly's conduct in the finale! You made me think twice about that one. :haha:

15 years ago now. :omg:
I know ....time flies! Re my thoughts on that day, remember I was a big Lowndes fan, and thought the Kelly Bros were spoilt 'Daddy bought me a race team' brats born with a silver spoon in their mouth, so anything where CL lost out was a huge No-No for me. Being a Kelly involved only made it worse. :whistling: Looking back on it now it was two guys with the title to be decided on who was in front at the end of the last race of the final round of the year. They both wanted to win. Shit happens. But..... :mrgreen:

(Ive mellowed on the Kelly's since then as well, and for all their money they are true racers, be it powerboats, cars, even on water skis in 100+mph endurance river races. Anyone who wants.to be dragged behind a boat at over 100mph up a river with bends for an hour or so race gets my respect) :bow:

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Post by theracer120 » 1 year ago

The mid-2022 introduction has finally been confirmed. Covid has been officially blamed but that's obviously only a part of what's happened.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

theracer120 wrote:
1 year ago
The mid-2022 introduction has finally been confirmed. Covid has been officially blamed but that's obviously only a part of what's happened.
I can see that slipping to a 2023 season start. I cant see how a mid season start with the limited time and availability of parts from overseas suppliers etc and then with everyone having to built and test / develop new cars to the new format mid season to be that workable, or even desirable. They have not even yet decided what format the engines will be other than they will be different capacities for Ford and GM. Plus all they have at this moment is a chassis in CAD form for the two marques, with suppliers for suspension components still not finalised.

Do it properly at the start of a season. My opinion.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 11 months ago

Supercars confirms Gen3 Camaro engine capacity
Adrian Burgess has confirmed the Gen3 specification Chevrolet Camaro will carry a 5.7-litre pushrod engine.

It has long been known that the Ford Mustang will house a 5.4-litre engine; however, there’s been plenty of speculation as to the size of the General Motors product.

In late May it emerged Supercars was evaluating 6.2-litre and 5.7-litre options. Now the category has confirmed the latter will be the engine of choice.

It marks a change from the current regulations whereby both Ford and Holden cars are powered by 5.0-litre engines.
There remains some questions around the final specification of the Gen3 GM engine, which is thought to be a stumbling block for at least one team making its commitment to the marque.

KRE Race Engines has been tasked with the development of the crate-based GM power plant while Mostech Race Engines is building the Ford engines.

Speaking with select media including Speedcafe.com, Burgess said he couldn’t go into extensive detail given the engine programme is still a work in progress, but went as far to confirming the capacity.

“It’s going to be a 5.7[-litre engine],” he said.

“Some of that stuff is still in their hands and I don’t think it’s right for me to outline all the technical details of that engine while they’re still working through their options.

“So when they have got something locked down and they present it to Supercars, then we will probably be able to give you a bit more detail around it.

“But it’s not for us to be able to dictate to them in its entirety what the engine spec is.

“We’re working with them and we’re obviously consulting with both the builders continuously, but at the moment I can’t really outline what they want to put forward; that’s their decision, not ours.

“They are a long way advanced with it, but it’s not a straight off-the-shelf road car engine anymore,” he added.

“Our engines never have been. So like all these things, they’re an accumulation of the parts.

“Now they’re working with GM closely on what they believe is the best package for them to put forward that makes the financial criteria we’re putting in place or we’re putting the target number for them to hopefully reach, we’re putting target reliability and rebuild costs.

“So to reach all of those sort of metrics that we’re trying to hold them to, it’s complicated.

“So it’s not as easy as saying it’s an LS3 block or LS3 heads or they’re bespoke heads or it’s an LTR block. It’s not that straightforward.

“From the outside, people might think it’s that straightforward but it isn’t.

“There’s a lot of factors in this thing and Supercars aren’t in a position to tell you what it is until those guys are happy with what they are presenting, and they are still working through that.”

Burgess confirmed Supercars had a “constructive meeting” with its OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) following the Darwin Triple Crown.

Mostech and KRE will put together proposals to Supercars which will contain projected costs, which Burgess said will then give teams the confidence to make a decision if they haven’t already.

“In terms of regulations, we’re still a way out from making regulations,” said Burgess.

“The first thing is we have got to build the car and go and test with the car and then some of the technical regulations will come out of the testing.

“So I think the engine builders are working flat out to get that information available to the teams and then they can make a choice then.”

Burgess has previously flagged the ability to utilise United States-based specialists Ilmor should there be a need for help to ensure engine parity, especially given the difference in capacity and specifications.

“If we feel we’ve got two engines and we can’t fix any differences that we see in them ourselves with the equipment and the people we have got in Australia, then we’ll certainly go to America and finish the job, so to speak, using Ilmor’s facility,” he told media last month.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/07/10/su ... -capacity/

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 11 months ago

Supercars pushes back Gen3 testing

On top of announcing the engine capacities Burgess also slipped in as an afterthought that the Gen 3 prototype testing has been put off from August until October.

Burgess last month confirmed plans for an August debut of the prototypes at Sydney Motorsport Park.

Now, that target has been pushed back to October due in part to delays in the manufacturing process.

More pressure on the mid year launch I have always been so much against.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 11 months ago

Triple Eight tests Gen3 engine prototype in TA2 (Aus Trans Am)

Progress is being made, at least on the GM side of the fence. As yet no sign of the Ford 5.4-litre V8 built by Mostech Race Engines to be used in the Mustang version of the Gen 3 cars. Hopefully they are not too far away. That engine, which is a hybrid between the crate Coyote and Aluminator engines built by Ford, will as mentioned power the Mustang.

Testing of the actual Gen 3 cars is, having been postponed from August due to slow progress on the building of prototypes, now due to happen in October. Some parts are not even yet confirmed let alone built.

The launch on the racing scene is still targeted at mid season next year. Im not convinced that date will be met, let alone the wisdom of a mid year same day complete new car replacement for the entire field but.....


The TA2 T888 Merc that tested the GM engine
Image
Supercars has made a step forward in the development of Gen3 with the public testing of a Chevrolet Camaro-destined prototype engine at Queensland Raceway.

The test was carried out by General Motors Specialty Vehicles homologation team Triple Eight Race Engineering yesterday alongside the team’s ride day, where its ZB and VF Commodores were in use.

A Mercedes-AMG C63 bodied TA2 race car (pic above) was fitted with the prototype 5.7-litre V8 with KRE Race Engines personnel and Supercars engine consultant Craig Haysted in attendance.

It’s understood Prince Jefri Ibrahim cut the lion’s share of laps in the space-frame chassis with the prototype engine.

Triple Eight Race Engineering’s drivers Jamie Whincup and Shane van Gisbergen also completed a handful of laps.

Several observers at the track reported that the car had a notably different noise to the incumbent Gen2 Supercars, though that may be related to the TA2 exhaust set-up.

It’s understood the engine was not running at full noise with a lower rev limit than what the final engine will run at.

It’s not yet known whether any other Gen3 related components were tested on the car.

However, the TA2 Asia specification cars are fitted with a six-speed gearbox with paddle shift.

Yesterday’s test marked the first known occasion the 5.7-litre V8, which will power the Chevrolet Camaro next year, has been on track.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/07/28/tr ... pe-in-ta2/

For those not aware or wondered who he was, the prime driver for the test, 26 year old Prince Jefri Ibrahim is part of the Johor Royal Family (Johor is a southern Malaysian state neighbouring Singapore.)
Roland Dane has known the family for decades. Ibrahim and his brothers attended a Supercars round on the Gold Coast about five years back, and quickly ordered a couple of roadgoing replica VF Commodore Supercars and Whincup’s 2017 championship-winning car. That led to SVG and JW going to Johor and putting Ibrahim through driver coaching.

When T888 looked to expand into GT3 racing in Asia a partnership was formed. Obviously a very lucrative arrangement for T888. Now Ibrahim lives in Queensland and has been part of the T888 Australian GT Mercedes squad, sharing the T888 car to success with both SVG and JW. He has also been involved in driving whatever he can in Aus . So that is where the Jefri Ibrahim driving involvement stems from.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 8 months ago

YAY for common sense.....
Supercars delays Gen3 to 2023


I and others have long been of the belief that you cannot impose a change of regulations such as the introduction of a completely new car and engine package, especially one that renders the existing cars obsolete and ineligible overnight at a mid season date plucked from the air as was the plan. Especially when you are dealings with external forces such as a Global pandemic that has delayed the entire process, from delivering a final spec delaying everything from homologation through to supply of finished components with which to build an entire grid of cars.

So very pleased to read this morning that the introduction of Gen 3 has no been postponed until the start of the 2023 season.
Supercars has delayed the introduction of Gen3 for a third time, pushing back its racing rollout to 2023.
In a statement, the category blamed “factors outside the control of Supercars” such as international supply chains and domestic disruptions due to COVID-19.

Lengthy lockdown periods in New South Wales and Victoria were noted as a contributing factor in the delay of its testing programme.

Supercars has confirmed the Gen3 prototypes will publicly debut on Friday, December 3 at this year’s Repco Bathurst 1000.

“Lockdowns in various states which have forced Supercars to condense its racing programme over the final three months of 2021, have also limited the Gen3 testing programme as originally planned,” the statement read.

“Supercars has arrived at this decision following consultation with key stakeholders including Repco, Ford, General Motors and Supercars’ broadcast partners.”

Supercars has earmarked plans to showcase the Gen3 platform at events throughout 2022 in the lead-up to the 2023 racing debut.

The rollout of Gen3 has long been troubled. Initially outlined for a 2021 debut, the project was first delayed to 2022 citing manufacturer market considerations among the reasons why.

Earlier this year it was announced the new regulations would be introduced midway through 2022.

That would have seen Supercars start the season with the incumbent Gen2 cars before switching over to Gen3 in the events leading up to the Bathurst 1000.

The mid-year debut came as rumours grew surrounding the feasibility of the platform’s delivery.

Those rumours were exacerbated by a high degree of secrecy surrounding the project.

Ultimately, a crisis meeting was held where it was decided a mid-year rollout would take place, though that statement came with a note that there would be “regular reviews in the coming months”.

This year was meant to be the last for the Holden ZB Commodore at The Mountain, but the platform will get a stay of execution for yet another season.

The ZB Commodore will eventually be replaced by the Chevrolet Camaro as the designated General Motors product.

The Ford Mustang will remain, albeit in a new guise when the new S650 model is released.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/10/13/su ... 3-to-2023/

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Post by MonteCristo » 8 months ago

Whoever first came up with that... speechless.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Gen 3 Official public unveiling tomorrow Friday 3rd Dec. at Mt Panorama

Not much activity in this thread of late since the Gen 3 intro was delayed until 2023 season start, but to show it is all still happening tomorrow we have the official public launch of the Gen 3 Prototypes that will be used for testing and finalising the undecided specs.
It is undoubtedly the major event in what to date has been mock up or component photos and renders.

What we will see tomorrow are real cars doing real demos and AFAIK laps of Mt Panorama, having recently been given shakedown tests. The first really tangible sign that things are happening. Obviously the launch will feature both Holden, whoops I mean General Motors nowadays :whistling: :wink: and the Ford alternative. In other words Camaro and Mustang. As it will be on track in 2023.

Im sure what we see unveiled tomorrow will end up in these pages here, if only to show signs of real progress and something real rather than a render or proposed component. :wink:

One thing that I know is still a TBA and that is the gearshift to be used...
. Supercars and some of the teams (including T888) want to dispense with the good old stick shift and introduce Gen 3 with paddle shift mainly because it is what everyone else is doing. Of course it in effect does half of the work for the drivers, auto throttle blips on downshifts and allegedly will reduce costs associated with over-revving on change down etc.

Many of the drivers (including I know SVG) are very vocal about wanting to retain stick shifts for the added driver involvement. AFAIK it is still up in the air, and is going to be decided in coming months during the testing and development process.

It will be interesting to see what the cars appear with tomorrow. I fear it will be paddle shift. As said even if the prototypes appear with paddle shift it is not a decision made, but it will certainly be a hint of the writing on the wall. :fingers: for the long term being stick shift. Long live the 'heel and toe' skillset! Im a purist and I make no apologies for it.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Interestingly, re my above post, they just did an interview live with Dick Johnson in front of the Ford fans on the mountain. One of the discussions was Gen 3, and Dick was very enthusiastic about the reduced downforce and overall concept.

And then unprompted he said that "Gen 3 needs a bloody stick shift". A huge roar of approval from all the fans.

Supercars, please listen to the fans. They do care. They do want to retain stick shifts. None of this crap that Supercars have been spouting that the fans dont care, the fans dont use stick shift in their road cars shit etc. The fans do care. Listen. to. them. Listen to DJ. Listen to the drivers.
No to paddleshift. :wink:

#keepthestickshift. :aggro: [/rant]

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Gen 3 launch live stream

If anyone wants to watch the unveiling / public launch of the new Gen 3 cars tomorrow Supercars are streaming it live. Well, its already tomorrow here and it starts at 7:30 am here, so that is about 4 hours time. :wink:

Fans will be able to watch the official launch of both the Gen3 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 and Ford Mustang GT live from this year’s Repco Bathurst 1000.

Both the Gen3 Camaro and Mustang will be officially unveiled on Friday December 3 at Mount Panorama.

Fans will be able to watch the special ceremony streamed live on Supercars YouTube channel and Supercars Facebook page. (links below)

Fans can also watch the launch on Supercars Twitter account and Supercars team's Facebook pages.

The livestream will commence at 7:35am AEDT. (21:35 in Europe I think)
https://www.supercars.com/news/champion ... n3-launch/


This is on their youtube age as being the link. You can set a reminder for an email when it goes live.

Gen3 Launch EVENT - Repco Bathurst 1000 | Supercars 2021





or if you do Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/supercars/live/

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