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Break up the personal bullshit.Weird, or unusual racing cars
- MonteCristo
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- Michael Ferner
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So it's okay to post bullshit smearing the memory of long deceased persons, but it's not okay questioning the "logic" behind that? And why is that suddenly "personal"? Maybe you all understand what "jimclark" is posting there, but I don't. i'm just asking questions.
Apparently, he doesn't want to engage in public discussion anymore (I wonder why?), so he sent me a PM replying to my question:
Yes, it was either play by the rules or don't play at all. Guess what, that applies to ALL racing, ALL sports even.
Yes, he did win 1969 - was that part of the deal?
And then you finally acknowledge that winning would have "meant even more" to Granatelli, yet losing (when he had the races in the bag!) was somehow "sufficient"
So, WHAT WAS the deal??? What was it that made Granatelli pass up on so much money and so much reputation that was on the line, to get... what? Less exposure? And what did USAC get out of it, they were not in the business of selling STP. Their "currency" was the credibility of the championship, and they got a good rap over it, and even paid through the nose for it - I just don't see it.
I'm really trying to shoot holes into your theory, but there's nothing other than baloney there. Put some flesh to your wild theories, or retract them.
Apparently, he doesn't want to engage in public discussion anymore (I wonder why?), so he sent me a PM replying to my question:
But that's exactly what you stated several times in this thread: posts #136, 147, 151 for example. A deal was made in the name of business yadayada. You're not being specific there, so that's what I'm trying to find out: what deal?.....more exposure (i.e. money) can be made by NOT winning. Explain that."
Sorry, I can't explain something I never stated to be so.
Yes, STP got excellent exposure, almost as much as he would have got by winning.STP got excellent exposure due to the controversy over the turbines. Granatelli was no dummy. It was either play by USAC's rules or don't come play at all. He played. If you recall, he did win with STP colors on the Mario's Hawk the very next year.
Why'd he even take the turbine route in the first place, one might ask? Because even without winning, there were more eyes (the reason for sponsoring) on the cars due to their notoriety during the whole month of May than any other....
Of course winning would have meant even more. But the amount it got was sufficient to play USAC's game anyway.
Try to have a nice day. Smiling is better than frowning....always.
Yes, it was either play by the rules or don't play at all. Guess what, that applies to ALL racing, ALL sports even.
Yes, he did win 1969 - was that part of the deal?
And then you finally acknowledge that winning would have "meant even more" to Granatelli, yet losing (when he had the races in the bag!) was somehow "sufficient"
So, WHAT WAS the deal??? What was it that made Granatelli pass up on so much money and so much reputation that was on the line, to get... what? Less exposure? And what did USAC get out of it, they were not in the business of selling STP. Their "currency" was the credibility of the championship, and they got a good rap over it, and even paid through the nose for it - I just don't see it.
I'm really trying to shoot holes into your theory, but there's nothing other than baloney there. Put some flesh to your wild theories, or retract them.
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- MonteCristo
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Sorry, your post viewtopic.php?p=399278#p399278 is personal.Michael Ferner wrote: ↑3 years ago So it's okay to post bullshit smearing the memory of long deceased persons, but it's not okay questioning the "logic" behind that? And why is that suddenly "personal"? Maybe you all understand what "jimclark" is posting there, but I don't. i'm just asking questions.
Ever hear the saying "Give someone enough rope"? He's likely doing it himself.
But ultimately none of us apart from him were there, and I believe that it played out more or less as he says it did (I'm sure exact details have been blurred over time).
But fact of the matter is that you wouldn't believe him even if he said Pollard literally told him there was a conspiracy (whether in jest, or in all seriousness), or if he gave him a shred of evidence that is now lost. It's he said/she said stuff, and there's no way to prove anything either way.
Was it most likely a driver humouring a kid? IMO, 99.999% most likely. But neither did Pollard say "No, that's wrong."
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- Michael Ferner
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Hm. Maybe my post was offensive, but so was his portrayal of Pollard which I still think is in very poor taste, because he can't defend himself. But I'm willing to tone down if he is retracting his statements. Tit for tat.
This is not just about "jimclark", this is about conspiracy theories, and how we deal with them. I say, shoot holes into them at all times, which is difficult enough in personal conversation, but very possible in the context of a bulletin board discussion. You will never get rid of them if you just ignore them, or think they're just jokes that will go away, eventually. And they can be VERY dangerous, as we have seen in the recent past! I'm not saying that this conspiracy theory is in any way dangerous, or could be, but it's the same pattern that gets repeated over and over again, and it's really not difficult to see how a person believing in one such story becomes susceptible to others. It's a cancer that needs to be dealt with. And it is possible, even necessary to stand up against it.
For some reason,"jimclark" is afraid of being proven wrong here, but there is absolutely no reason for that fear. I have been wrong all my life, at all times - no big deal, I just modify my opinion and move on. We all do. Yet, "jimclark" is digging trenches around his foolish opinion, for reasons only he can know. It makes him look silly, so there's only two ways out: dig deeper, which will make him look even more silly, and can only end in a rabbit hole of conspiracies which at one point will be like a cave, or just admit that you're wrong, and move on. Nothing to it, it's actually a big relief you will see.
This is not just about "jimclark", this is about conspiracy theories, and how we deal with them. I say, shoot holes into them at all times, which is difficult enough in personal conversation, but very possible in the context of a bulletin board discussion. You will never get rid of them if you just ignore them, or think they're just jokes that will go away, eventually. And they can be VERY dangerous, as we have seen in the recent past! I'm not saying that this conspiracy theory is in any way dangerous, or could be, but it's the same pattern that gets repeated over and over again, and it's really not difficult to see how a person believing in one such story becomes susceptible to others. It's a cancer that needs to be dealt with. And it is possible, even necessary to stand up against it.
For some reason,"jimclark" is afraid of being proven wrong here, but there is absolutely no reason for that fear. I have been wrong all my life, at all times - no big deal, I just modify my opinion and move on. We all do. Yet, "jimclark" is digging trenches around his foolish opinion, for reasons only he can know. It makes him look silly, so there's only two ways out: dig deeper, which will make him look even more silly, and can only end in a rabbit hole of conspiracies which at one point will be like a cave, or just admit that you're wrong, and move on. Nothing to it, it's actually a big relief you will see.
Last edited by Michael Ferner 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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I think this is all being blown out of proportion. You talk of conspiracy theories and that is all everyone else is viewing it as. You can't change what he experienced or what he has probably believed for the last 50 years with just one or two posts on this forum, but you have every right to disbelieve or disagree with it.
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This is what I think too, hence I don't see any offence towards Pollard, who I suspect was just being nice to a young fan rather than wanting to argue with him or make him look foolish.MonteCristo wrote: ↑3 years ago Was it most likely a driver humouring a kid? IMO, 99.999% most likely.
As always with a conspiracy theory, both sides think it's the other side being naive, and ultimately nobody ends up changing their minds - unless actual evidence can be provided, which clearly isn't going to happen.
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If it's humouring a kid, it has zero credence and is offensive to claim otherwise.
If it's legit, do we really think he's going to wink wink nudge nudge to a kid?
Simple fact is, if this sort of thing happens, the truth comes out eventually.
Likewise Lewis Hamilton's dodgy car reset in Brazil 2007, or Alonso at Singapore 2008. We know about one instance, but nothing on the other.
Humans can't keep their traps shut.
If it's legit, do we really think he's going to wink wink nudge nudge to a kid?
Simple fact is, if this sort of thing happens, the truth comes out eventually.
Likewise Lewis Hamilton's dodgy car reset in Brazil 2007, or Alonso at Singapore 2008. We know about one instance, but nothing on the other.
Humans can't keep their traps shut.
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- Michael Ferner
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Uh, that's a bit unfair. I mean, I gave compelling evidence that it didn't happen: Granatelli gleefully giving up bragging rights, the exposure, his reputation, not to mention 200,000 bucks in prize money, only for USAC to ban the turbine anyway, and him spending another 200,000 in courts (that's his figure, maybe exaggerated like most things to do with AG, but still) and losing, then falling for the very same trick the very next year. That's just bonkers, and not even Granatelli was that bonkers, plus I still don't see what USAC could have gained by making any sort of a deal, even if they did not hold their end up and maybe never intended to. It's just basic human behaviour. If you lose tons of money and prestige on a deal and gain absolutely nothing, you don't make that same mistake all over again. It doesn't happen.
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Michael Ferner wrote: ↑3 years agoUh, that's a bit unfair. I mean, I gave compelling evidence that it didn't happen: Granatelli gleefully giving up bragging rights, the exposure, his reputation, not to mention 200,000 bucks in prize money, only for USAC to ban the turbine anyway, and him spending another 200,000 in courts (that's his figure, maybe exaggerated like most things to do with AG, but still) and losing, then falling for the very same trick the very next year. That's just bonkers, and not even Granatelli was that bonkers, plus I still don't see what USAC could have gained by making any sort of a deal, even if they did not hold their end up and maybe never intended to. It's just basic human behaviour. If you lose tons of money and prestige on a deal and gain absolutely nothing, you don't make that same mistake all over again. It doesn't happen.
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Indeed you did - sorry, I should have been clearer in saying that the evidence needed to come from the one pushing the conspiracy theory, the one that is at odds with the status quo of what is generally believed to have happened. And of course, for the reasons you state, there will be no such evidence forthcoming because there isn't any.Michael Ferner wrote: ↑3 years agoUh, that's a bit unfair. I mean, I gave compelling evidence that it didn't happen
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Because I agree with @PTRACER and @MonteCristo . It's gotten out of hand. I have no need to try to convince you of anything and you refute anything I say just to refute..Michael Ferner wrote: ↑3 years agoApparently, he doesn't want to engage in public discussion anymore (I wonder why?)
BTW, I smear neither PJ, Art, Graham, Joe, Andy, Wallis, Chapman, or USAC. There was nothing illegal or even unethical on the Indy 500 (and rest of the '78 season) stage.
Show business is show business.
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Yes guys, that's the McLaren M23
It's with a special bodywork on for the Can-Am 1979 Championship.
(the last photo is taken from "McLaren M23 Owners' Workshop Manual" (book)
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Cool. 'Didn't know. (Didn't follow the Can Am after the semi-unlimited one).
'Checked and it was only in 3 races and didn't fair to well (Mosport, 18th, DNF; Mid-Ohio, 13th, DNF; Watkins Glen, 12th, 22 laps down).
A shame after McLaren's record in the original.
'Checked and it was only in 3 races and didn't fair to well (Mosport, 18th, DNF; Mid-Ohio, 13th, DNF; Watkins Glen, 12th, 22 laps down).
A shame after McLaren's record in the original.
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jimclark wrote: ↑3 years ago Already 'had some that did run in IMSA......Dave Cowart and Kenper Miller's Red Lobster (restaurant chain) March 83G (and 84G....'don't 'member if they got an '85).....
edit: I'm a liar.....well.....mistaken.
'Did some research and they actually had an 82G and the 83G (above photo). No 84 or 85.
This is an AWESOME livery. I love this.
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Certainly does. Not that it ever officially existed ....redaxolotl wrote: ↑3 years ago This Audi belongs here: www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/videos ... kely-audi/
This was the Group B secret successor to the front engined Audi that dominated WRC. With mid engine developments coming from competitors, against the wishes or knowledge of the Audi board of Directors the guys at Audi Sport were secretly developing this 700hp 750kg mini-monster. When the project was leaked it was immediately canned and hushed up. For many years it was hidden in the corner of the factory, but I know now it has become something that has in recent years been demoed by such notables as Rohrl and Mikkola. Ithink it was fully restored for the 30th anniversary of the demise of Group B and is now proudly part of their history (It featured at the 2017 Goodwood FoS
A long article about the car here: https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/a ... uppesspecs
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