Supercars Gen 3 Discussion thread

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Supercars Gen 3 Discussion thread

Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Supercars Gen 3.

Thought we should have a seperate thread to cover Gen 3 developments as they plan to introduce the new format fo 2022, to replace the dated "Gen 2 COTF format that was aimed more at the now obsolete Commodore v Falcon (with cameo appearances from Nissan, Mercedes and Volvo), originally a 4 door sedan formula under which V8 Supercars ran.

As a background for any non Aussies trying to grasp what is meant by Gen 3 and its predecessor Gen 2 (what we currently run under), a little background....

Gen 2 was based upon making the formula easier to control through parity with many common parts and a core identical safety cell chassis used as a template for all brands of car. Clearly with the demise of the tradition 4 door sedan market in Aus, and the introduction of the Ford Mustang to Supercars racing it was time to move on, given the racing SUpercars Mustang was introduced using the standard Gen 2 chassis designed for a 4 door sedan. Under every Supercars body of recent years lies a control chassis and running components other than the engine. The racing version of the Mustang used here had panels stretched and shrunk to fit around the Gen 2 chassis that incorporates a full roll cage as part of it. In reality the Supercars Mustang was a silhouette of the road car and never looked quite right. It was time to move on. Gen 3 is due to be introduced in 2022.

This is what the Gen 2 COTF looks like. Underneath the Mustang or Commodore panels is currently this:

Image
Everything you need to know about Supercars’ Gen3 2022 rules

t isn’t a stretch to say the Gen3 regulations are the most significant in Supercars’ history. However the changes will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

The onset of a global pandemic in COVID-19, and the disruption that has caused, has only increased the intensity of discussions at Supercars HQ. Securing a future for the sport is vital.

To have a chance at surviving the existential threats to the category’s survival, it needs to find solutions to four key questions: what will the cars will look like, what engines will be used, will they need manufacturer support, and how will they keep fans engaged?

I mentioned the Gen 2 was obsolete given the fact the mainstay Falcon and Commodore are no longer made. Now, with those production cars extinct, the category needs a new skeleton to sit beneath the racers’ composite panels. There are multiple ‘ready made’ formulas the category could adopt but instead Supercars has opted for a slight tweak to its current ruleset.

One of the changes that will be most notable with the new chassis, is a drop in aerodynamic performance. While the cars will retain wings and spoilers to make them look aggressive, they will have more of a visual impact than an aerodynamic one.

As Roland Dane, CEO of T888 engineering says: “the cars need to be overpowered ,under tyred, a bit of a handful to drive, and look like road cars with a bit of a spoiler.” Plus they need to incorporate cost reduction. Shrinking grids are the result of costs running out of control. So expect plenty of control components. Same for all.... barkes, uprights, suspensions, Gearboxes / diffs (they will use a transaxle)
Increased road relevance, improved racing and reduced costs are the key pillars of Supercars’ new Gen3 formula.

*Supercars is aiming to reduce acquisition and operating costs by between 30 and 40 percent of current levels, improving sustainability for teams.

* Supercars want to mke Supercars more attractive to other manufacturers to join in without the huge associated development costs.

*Gen3 will mark an evolution from the current Gen2, with V8-powered, front-engined, rear-wheel drive cars racing under technical parity rules.

*The new control chassis will though be smaller than the current iteration in order to broaden the range of cars that can compete.

*Gen3 will require that all race cars have the same dimensions as the road cars they are based on for all key body components, such as doors, roof, windows and bonnet.

* Such components must be interchangeable with that on the respective road car, marking a return to the category’s heritage.

* The quest for better racing includes a targeted aerodynamic downforce reduction of more than 50 percent from current levels, around which a new Dunlop control tyre is being developed.

* Less reliance on engineering and data and more on driver skill is meanwhile set to make racing closer, while also reducing costs.

* Existing teaams and Supercars have all been involved in getting to where we are now with Gen 3.

* Components to be carried over from the Gen2 cars include the transaxle gearbox, dampers and independent rear suspension. Teams will be able to continue using those key components they have been using for years.

Engines:

Details of the V8 engines to be used are yet to be confirmed, with intentions of increasing engine life, reducing fuel consumption and ensuring more engine options can be competitive.

A generic, Supercars-branded motor is under consideration in order to reduce barriers to entry for new players, while hybrid technologies could be introduced in future.

* The power-to-weight ratio of the cars is expected to be unchanged, with a small reduction in power offset by 100kg less weight.

Hopefully that gives you all a bit more knowledge and understanding of Gen 3.
I have used various sources of stuff for this so thanks to Supercars, Which Car, AutoAction, Speedcafe websites and Mr Google for being a friend. Plus my own interpretations and understanding thrown in.

Finally a few render and pics about what we are looking at.

Image

A gen 3 Camaro. Expected along with the Mustang to be the core of the field.

Image

Gen 3 Mustang is now the right height rather than a Mustang stretched to fit a sedan frame.

Image

I say many GM / Holden runners are looking at Camaro. Not all though with others looking to bring new manufacturers on board.

Renders of proposed targets: NOTE No one (beyond Mustang and Camaro) has committed yet so these are ideological at best.

Supra
Image

BMW M4
Image Image

Kia Stinger
Image

What we end up with is anybodies game but :fingers: :fingers:
Last edited by Everso Biggyballies 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Forgot to mention that the Supercars supplied chassis, once in its final homologated state, will be made available to teams as a disassembled kit set with associated category controlled componentry.

Teams will still be able to manufacture their own chassis should they wish to; however, the kit set option is aimed to reduce the manufacturing cost and burden.

Part of the idea to offer a kit set rather than a pre-built chassis is so that teams can understand how the chassis is put together and maintained. Again, aimed at reducing running costs.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 6 months ago

Kia say an emphatic NO to Gen 3 Supercars involvement.

We have the first refusal to take part in Supercars Gen 3 from 2022 fromof one of the targeted teams.

Kia Australia Chief Operating Officer, Damien Meredith, has dismissed any chance the company would allow its Stinger to join the championship.

As explained previously Supercars is hoping to attract new brands to its championship by lowering the cost of entry and even developing the race versions of the road cars at no cost to the manufacturers.

That would see Supercars acquire the intellectual property from manufacturers to then develop the silhouettes inhouse.

However, that’s not enough to entice Kia, with Meredith stating that motorsport simply doesn’t fit with the brand’s local plans.

“It wouldn’t make sense for what we’re trying to do as a brand at this point in time,”

They did not even like the idea of Supercars assisting in the development of the silhouette to cut down costs.

Kia is one of the fastest growing car manufacturers on the Aussie market..... they have gone from 14th to 6th in cars sold, and are on the cusp of passing Ford for 5th.

It was a very direct No thanks Not interested.

So that is one of the manufacturers thought most likely to be keen and perhaps say yes, quickly replying with a very definite no.

There will be more refusals for sure before we see any interest. I feel Supercars have completely misjudged what they think would happen with them taking over a lot of the cost of setting up.

The problem I see is that when you are talking of acquiring manufacturers IP, the manus want to be involved directly themselves. They dont fling their IP around lightly. It is the integrity and future of their brand.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 months ago

Supercars to trial push to pass in Gen3 development


Not sure about this one and I am not a huge fan of these toys that supposedly add to the racing. I guess I base all these ideas suitability on F1's DRS idea which sucks balls big time, so I tend not to like artificializing (is that even a word?) motor sport . But push to pass seems popular in other categories so at this stage I am on the fence.
Supercars is set to trial push to pass technology this year ahead of the introduction of Gen3 in 2022.

A tender document published by Supercars earlier this month for a Control Electrics & Electronics System reveals the category will trial a throttle-based overtaking system.

The document reads: “Various push to pass methods are under review but as minimum, provision is required for a push to pass system.

“We will be trialling a throttle-based push to pass system. For this we will need an addition 3 axis throttle translation table that is activated by the push to pass switch.”

Supercars has previously hinted at the possibility of push to pass being introduced to the category.

The Gen3 chassis will have provision for hybrid elements, which could facilitate a push to pass function among other uses including use in the pit lane and full-time complimentary power.

However, the tender document indicates the means by which the overtake system is introduced isn’t necessarily dependent on hybridisation with a throttle-based set-up mooted.

The document also notes, “Hybrid integration is being considered for the GEN 3 project. It is expected that this will not be used for the start of 2022.”

The tender document asks for prospective suppliers to provide an engine control unit, data recording system, data analysis software, driver display, video recording system, power control and distribution module, accident data recorder, global positioning system, telemetry system, complete steering wheel, shift light module, membrane switch panel box, battery isolation relay, and sensors for sourcing data.

Paddle shift technology could be introduced to the category too with the FIA compliant engine control unit required to be capable of assisted shifting in the form of paddle shift.

Tenderers are asked to supply a complete steering wheel with a paddle shift switch mechanism, switches, display, and integrated shift lights.

The tender asks that the paddle shift technology be capable of user configurable throttle blip and automatic shift mode.

Paddle shifting has previously been discussed as a possibility for the category.

Triple Eight Race Engineering tested a paddle shift set-up in 2017 in its Sandman Supercar.

Team boss Roland Dane pushed for the introduction of paddle shifting under safety grounds in an effort to reduce the possibility of legs striking the gear lever, resulting in injuries.

Chaz Mostert broke his leg in an incident at Mount Panorama in 2015 while Rick Kelly suffered a muscle tear in a crash at Symmons Plains in 2017.

Safety enhancements were made to cockpits following the Mostert crash, which saw improved leg protection.

The document also details direct fuel injection is under review, and as such, the engine control unit must be capable of facilitating that.

However, Supercars anticipates it will ‘only require a port injection’ engine control unit.

Tenderers can choose to tender for the complete system or any element of it, though prospective suppliers are more likely to be chosen if they supply the complete system.

The tendering of a controlled electrics and electronics system follows the release of tenders for a controlled control pedal box, brakes package, wheel, and fuel system late last year.

The winning tender will be selected on February 5, though that may vary at the discretion of Supercars.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/01/11/su ... velopment/

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 3 months ago

Paul Morris re Paddle Shifts and Push to Pass technology.

Had to have a bit of a snigger about comments Paul Morris had to make about some of the new features that Supercars are looking at for "Gen3" incorporation.

Paul is very anti the move to paddle shifting as he says it takes away from the skillset of the driver not having to use a clutch or blip the throttle on down shidt being that is all done for the driver with paddle shifters. Ostensibly they are automatic gearboxes with the driver (only) governing when the gearchange happens.

Paul would if he had his way hve then all revert back to the H pattern stick shift of old, as it was pre the current sequential shifter they use.
As an aside he admits they would be more expensive to run traditional H pattern gearboxes as they need more maintenance and are pro to driver induced breakages, and that is the reason, cost containment, of the paddle shift direction.

More amusing though was his thoughts on a push to pass system that is being considered. Paul is very ant any power boosting push to pass system.... more of an opinion we already have push to pass, and its called a front bumper! :haha:
“The only push to pass should be the bumper,” he quipped.

“Some guy’s holding you up, wobbling around; move him out of the way.

“You don’t need to have push to pass, you just need to let people race.”
OK an admission from me..... I used to be quite anti Paul Morris back in the days when he was driving... I didnt like his wreck 'em if you have to attitude that comes with having a wealthy family funding everything, leading to his comments along the lines of if I wreck it I will just buy a new one.

Anyway I admit I now quite like him and his old school attitudes and perhaps mischievous ways. . Nowadays of course he is putting an awful lot back into motor racing, and bringing on / developing a host of young drivers, and that is great to see. Im sure he is getting paid for his work, but none the less he is putting a lot of time and resources into motor sport for others, the use of his private track and facilities at his Morwell Complex and I like that. He has an awful lot of experience to pass on. Good to see.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 month ago

Supercars to slash downforce by two-thirds in Gen 3.

Drivers have often complained about dirty air and aerowash caused by high downforce levels in Supercars making it difficult to race close and indeed pass. Recent minimal changes to the aero under parity mods within Gen 2 reduced downforce by about 12% but that made little difference.

So now for Gen 3, which is to be introduced next year, Supercars have bitten the bullet and are going to be reducing downforce by a massive two thirds.

No real details of how they will achieve that beyond the obvious wings and splitters, but plenty of CFD work is being done in time for an alleged sample car being available around mid year.....

A DJR render gives a few clues ie centrpost rear wing and different splitters, but it is nothing offiial and just a team render of what might be.....
Image
Supercars is set for massive downforce cuts with the arrival of Gen3 in 2022, slashing two-thirds of the aero levels seen in the current Gen2 models.

Drivers have long complained about dirty air and aerowash caused by high downforce levels in Supercars.

It is hoped a reduction in downforce will allow cars to follow each other closely and in theory promote overtaking.

That grizzling has been heightened in recent years by parity adjustments to the Ford Mustang and Holden ZB Commodore.

Supercars reduced downforce between the 2019 and 2020 seasons by approximately 12 percent, although the dirty air problem persisted.

With the advent of new regulations, Supercars is taking the opportunity to make wholesale changes.“One of the biggest things our drivers complain about currently, is not being able to follow the car in front closely at mid-corner on high speed corners and then make a pass at the following corner,” a Supercars spokesperson told Speedcafe.com.

“Less passing means less entertaining racing, which is why we are addressing it. With 400-plus kilograms of downforce on our current cars, it creates a lot of disturbed, or “dirty air” for the following car which is what the drivers are complaining about.

“Coming down to mid-100kgs we believe, and this is being backed up by the work being done in CFD [computational fluid dynamics], will significantly reduce the amount of dirty air generated and therefore improve following conditions and then passing, thus improving the racing.”

Next year the grid will feature a new-look Ford Mustang which will race alongside the Chevrolet Camaro, marking the first time since 1984 that the nameplate has raced in the championship.

Until now, little had been said of the aerodynamic matters related to Gen3 and how much of a downforce reduction could be in order.

Renders released at last year’s Bathurst 1000 showed the Mustang and Camaro sporting centre mounted rear wings.

It is understood those wings will be used primarily as a parity balancing tool.

Those renders also revealed a new-look front splitter with fenders on either side. It remains unclear whether those elements will make it to the final race-ready models.

The Mustang and Camaro silhouette will also bear a closer resemblance to their road-going counterparts.

Among the tenders for controlled componentry released to date, Supercars has sought one or more bodywork suppliers.

That would see the successful applicant or applicants supply Mustang and Camaro bodywork including the roof, boot, doors, quarter panels, mirrors, front and rear bars, front splitter, rear diffuser, rear wing elements, A-, B-, and C-pillars.

It is hoped Supercars will have a functioning prototype on track by mid-2021 in time for teams to build cars in the off-season.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/03/17/su ... 7-percent/

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Post by MonteCristo » 1 month ago

Slippy cars might just make me watch.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 month ago

Driver want the paddle shift concept thrown out

One of the major changes being put forward to be incorporated in Gen 3 was to replace the current 'sequential' floor shifter currently used with a semi automatic 'paddle' shifter, complete with automated rev blips on downshift to make it easier for drivers. Currently I believe even with sequential gears they still use a foot clutch certainly in the downshifts and like to blip the throttle manually in the old school heel and toe manner. I think upshifts may be a clutchless operation.
(The current sequential shift replaced the old traditional H pattern manual gearbox over a decade ago in 2008.... the justification on that was to improve reliability and reduce costs substantially. The older H pattern were it seems a high cost item due to drivers crashing gears or missing gear changes and over revving / damaging engines.)

Re the move to a paddle shift the drivers have basically said no, throw that idea in the bin we dont want it.
It seems the major plus with the new ruleset being drafted is the huge reduction in downforce and from a team point of view the use of more control parts in the suspensions and brakes are seen as a potential huge cost saving in terms of development design and one off manufacturing costs.

When asked about paddle shifts in the post race conference all three podium getters in the final race said no way, we dont want them with SVG being even more vocal....
“I think next year’s exciting, the Gen3 having no aero and all that kind of stuff – except for paddle shift; that’s shit,
Throw paddle shift in the bin,”
said van Gisbergen.
. :haha: I must admit I am ante too many in effect driver aids. I like that they have to do full clutch and throttle starts (even if they re now all semi automated with linelockers etc, it is still very much a driver controlled thing that can easily go wrong with too much/not enough wheelspin.

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Post by erwin greven » 1 month ago

Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 month ago

Both paddles and sequential / stick shift to be tested in Gen3 Supercars

The argument of paddle shift v stick/sequential shift continues, with both concepts now to be tested before a decision is made. It seems drivers want sequential (ie what they have now) as it leaves them with a less automated experience, but some teams are keen on paddle shift due to the apparent cost benefits. Of course one of the over-riding factors of the Gen 3 programme is an attempt to reduce running costs by 30-40% so who knows which way it will go.

With "drive by wire throttle" part of the new system (ie no throttle cable per se but electronic sensors doing the job, programming in the paddle shift with auto throttle blips and no need for drivers to heel and toe) is a simple programming job, plus it is more inline with current road car trends and function.

Lets not kid ourselves, what they have now is not a traditional stick shift. There is no gate or H Pattern as such used in traditional gearboxes we grew up with..... with the current sequential system a simple push forward to go up a gear and pull back to go down a gear. Multiple downshifts are just extra pulls on the lever although currently needs the driver to operate the clutch. Upshifts are flat changes with no clutch anyway so it is purely a downshift question.

Sadly I cant see the drivers winning this one, although those that are making the decisions say “We acknowledge that there is a range of opinions on the right way forward – all of these will be taken into consideration before making a final decision,” I dont think the average fan will have a clue as to what is being used. They will still hear an engine being revved or blipped on downshifts, but whether it is a programmed blip or a driver input is not going to be known other than by purists. And of course the drivers.It effects them and their input more than anyone.

Lets face it everything is becoming more automated now with the drivers having more limited influence over race starts and electronic starting controls and electronic wizardry control revs to a pre programmed optimum based on practice starts. Most (performance) road cars now have launch control programmes where the driver just holds the throttle flat on the floor.

Progress? Well that is a very subjective word innit. I just hate the word stickshift that seems to have slipped in it place of what I have always know as a gear shifter or gear lever! Stickshift seems to be something from the US of A that has infiltrated our shores.

The official words....

Supercars will test both paddle shift and the current-style gear lever when its Gen3 prototypes hit the race track, championship CEO Sean Seamer has advised.

The category’s future direction with regards to gear shifting, including whether or not drivers will still have to heel-and-toe on down changes, has been a controversial topic in recent months.

The plan for paddles and ‘assisted shift’ came to light in a tender opened by Supercars in January which stated, in part, “At this stage, an E-shift system is likely” in the Gen3 vehicles which are due to race next year.

Nevertheless, neither initiative is a definite, according to Seamer, who has taken the lead on the project in recent months.

“No decision on the format of the gear lever or auto-blip has been made yet,” he tsaid

“We will be testing both formats in our prototypes.”

It is understood that cost savings are a key reason for a possible move to paddle shift and automatic throttle blip.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/04/13/bo ... supercars/

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 week ago

Supercars, teams set for Gen3 crisis meeting next Tuesday

A lot of talk of late, not all good, has been in the air regarding the introduction of Gen 3 which is planned for 2022. Many players are suggesting it wont happen, it would be better in 2023 ((It was originally scheduled for this year but Covid got in the way).
Some have suggested the season will start much later to allow for cars to be built.... they are still deciding on the format of key issues such as gear selection, steering wheels and other key parts. In general there seems to be general lack of knowledge with the teams as to WTF is actually happening in terms of specs.
Anyway a big meeting of teams and Supercars is planned and being labelled a crisis meeting. V8SC of course are downplaying any problems.
Some smaller teams have yet to decide whether they will run with the Ford (Mustang) side of the fence or GM (Camaro). Matt Stone Racing is one of those. (The new generation of regulations will welcome the Chevrolet Camaro to the category in place of the Holden ZB Commodore.)

Supercars is tipped to hold a crisis meeting with all 11 team owners next Tuesday as tensions around the Gen3 project approach boiling point.

There’s been no shortage of controversy when it comes to Gen3, whether it be related to the mooted introduction of paddle shift or general gripes about shortcomings in Supercars’ communications on the overall matter.

That’s led to calls this week for Gen3 to be postponed for a second time, back to 2023.

Soon after, Supercars was forced to reject suggestions from drivers David Reynolds and Michael Caruso that the date of the 2022 season-opener would be delayed by several months.

Frustrations from both sides – ie Supercars and the various teams – is set to come to a head with the meeting next week, possibly at the category’s North Sydney office.

Speedcafe.com sources have indicated the meeting will be designed to discuss the direction of Gen3 and get all parties on the same page.

Not out of the question is a debate on whether Gen3 is still viable for a 2022 deployment.

When approached a Supercars spokesperson confirmed a meeting will take place on Tuesday next week but attempted to downplay the seriousness of the agenda.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/05/06/su ... s-meeting/

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 days ago

Supercars declares Gen3 still set for 2022 rollout

As mentioned above a crisis meeting was convened to discuss all aspects of Gen3 with Supercars and the Teams. Some teams (ie those not involved in the homologation process, namely everyone bar the T8, DJR and Tickford teams) Those teams non involved have been concerned over a lack of information, leading to calls to have the next-generation chassis pushed back a year. The focus of todays meeting was to bring them up to speed with the actual status of Gen3. To date, little has been glimpsed into Gen3 beyond the Triple Eight Race Engineering-built chassis and controlled steering wheel prototypes and a few renders of finished cars.

Anyway, the crisis meeting has been held today and Supercars and all teams have agreed to continue working towards implementing Gen3 in 2022. Supercars has stated testing of its Gen3 car is still on schedule to get underway midway through this year.

Supercars released a brief statement confirming what I have said above..
“Supercars met today to discuss the implementation timetable for the Gen3 Supercar, which has been subject to significant speculation recently.”

“The outcome of the session was to continue working towards a 2022 implementation and we will continue regular reviews in the coming months.”
My thoughts are until we get something on the track to test and develop it is all words. Im not convinced.

*Sebastian, Lance is faster than you... do you understand?*


*I married Miss Right. Just didn't know her first name was Always

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Post by theracer120 » 1 day ago

Speedcafe and Auto Action are now saying it might be introduced mid-season. Not sure how that's going to work if it happens, maybe they'll do a 2022/23 season and have a short 2022 season?

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 day ago

theracer120 wrote:
1 day ago
Speedcafe and Auto Action are now saying it might be introduced mid-season. Not sure how that's going to work if it happens, maybe they'll do a 2022/23 season and have a short 2022 season?
Yeah..... the suggestion of a late intro explains the now shown to be vague response of 'we still plan to introduce for 2022', implying the season start, and then a couple of days later clarifying that it might be mid 2022 rather than the start of the season.

The odd thing about a mid season start is that presumably with the new update of the road Mustang (the S650) is scheduled for next year and will no doubt have to have its own V8SC aero package developed for it almost straight away after the Gen3 release. My understanding is that as soon as Gen 3 is introduced, all Gen 2 cars become obsolete in terms of V8SC use, ie all cars on the grid must be Gen 3, so no smaller teams will be able to say 'we will just continue with the Gen 2 car for next year'....

Im sure there will be plenty more debate going on before we know the real truth of when will it happen.

I reckon the current owners of V8SC (Archer Capital) must be spewing that they ever got involved with Supercars seeing he current value has plummeted from what they paid for it.. I guess that is a bit like F1 and Liberty with their involvement not having been the money spinner they thought they had bought.

*Sebastian, Lance is faster than you... do you understand?*


*I married Miss Right. Just didn't know her first name was Always

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