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Ian-S
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#106

Post by Ian-S »

Bottom post of the previous page:

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago @jimclark I think you are missing the point of the examples you cited. They used White Guilt as an example of going too far on the subject. We want to be treated the same (and live up to the idea of what America is supposed to be), not have power over others.
There seems to be a big misconception from the likes of BLM that only black people live in poverty and don't get equal opportunities, that they are somehow second class citizens. You, as in black people, not you directly, do get treated the same, you can use the same toilet as a white person, sit in the same area of the bus etc. I don't know of any segregation that goes on (please correct me if I am wrong).

Now when it comes to getting equal opportunities in employment that is another matter and depends on the individual views of the person doing the hiring, as we are always reminded whenever a Muslim blows up kids at a concert, or another one goes on a knife rampage, or a group of black kids go on a riot and beat up the local white kids (like what happened in London last week) the first answer to all this is "this is actions of a small minority and is not representative of the greater community".

Funny how that doesn't apply the other way.
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#107

Post by jimclark »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years agoA) Small world. I was born in the Jamaica Co-ops, but we moved to upstate NY when I was a kid. (See, my parents also worked hard to change their lives. No one "owed" them anything either.) My grandmother, my uncle and his family all lived in a house just off of 188th (Farmers blvd.) until the late 90s, so I am familiar with the area. Back during the time you are referring to (pre-Shea), it was a nice suburban area. It didn't become "the hood" until the late 80s (and it's coming back to being a nice area again).

B) But racism is so engrained in the American DNA that we would like to think it's a political issue.
C) But if you are trying to pretend racism does not exist, time to wake up and face the reality that it does.
I would have responded to your points specifically, but your comprehension and awareness is so far off, and I'm so weary of this subject that I will just address the first and last.

A) Apparently, you haven't a clue about the area. "Back during the time you are referring to (pre-Shea), it was a nice suburban area."
188th and whatever avenue (Bayside?) is a far cry from the slum of Flushing between Lawrence and Main, Northern and the LIRR. "E" for effort. And no, it has not come back whatsoever.

B) I don't have racism engrained in my DNA. And I know many.....nay, most.....people don't. Moreover, when someone is prejudiced toward me, I just brush it off and move on. I don't demand they not think what they will.... I'm secure in myself, even with all I put up with back in the day.
You can give a person a meal (stop someone's expression of prejudice on "that" occasion), or they can butch up and feed themselves (accomplish for self esteem)...... Supposedly your family did it (though I do have doubts); I know we did.

C) I've pretended nothing. I'm quite awake and live a real life, not dream of some fantasy about "paradise". I have my prejudices as does every single human being. I despise pistacchio ice cream, even though I luuuuv pistacchios. But whatever biases anyone has is their business. As long as they don't act in any way detrimental to someone, they have a right to their opinion, no matter how god-awful.
Again, as long as they don't act upon it. Throughout my posts, I emphasize that. Waving a flag, for instance hurts no one. Another again....it's only in that gray stuff if you let it.

Again, and for certain, no mas.
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#108

Post by XcraigX »

Ian-S wrote: 3 years ago There seems to be a big misconception from the likes of BLM that only black people live in poverty and don't get equal opportunities, that they are somehow second class citizens. You, as in black people, not you directly, do get treated the same, you can use the same toilet as a white person, sit in the same area of the bus etc. I don't know of any segregation that goes on (please correct me if I am wrong).

Now when it comes to getting equal opportunities in employment that is another matter and depends on the individual views of the person doing the hiring, as we are always reminded whenever a Muslim blows up kids at a concert, or another one goes on a knife rampage, or a group of black kids go on a riot and beat up the local white kids (like what happened in London last week) the first answer to all this is "this is actions of a small minority and is not representative of the greater community".

Funny how that doesn't apply the other way.
I understand how you can see it that way. The big difference here is that systems are in place (including treatment of brown people by police) to keep the black population poor. It is harder to overcome the obstacles to move from povery to affluence if you have melanin in your skin. There have been studies that confirm this. There is a video on systemic racism you should check out. There are some issues with the video but this is a better explainer than a multi-paragraph essay in this post. If you would like to understand this in more depth, there is research from the Pew Research center on some of the issue here and here.

Obviously, things are much, much better than they were prior to 1968, but that does not mean things are "good" now. When you start as low as American has, you can't be satisfied with only 1/2 way out the basement. Let's get at least 1 or 2 steps close to the ground floor before we start claiming victory over race issues. Just because we can use the same toilet does not mean we are treated as equals. I think you know this. Many people understand the problem, but they justify all kinds of ways to deny that it needs to be fixed or ignore it in general. Here is a good example.

However, with that being said, our country has a class issue as well. But give a poor white guy and good haircut and a suit and he is accepted more readily than a black person who comes from middle class or money.
The BLM movement was started to solve a single issue, but if there was a different movement about police brutality against poor people of all skin colors I would support that also (and there are many from the BLM movement that would also). I'm not saying there aren't black people that don't like white people. But that is the result of years of negative interactions rather than a feeling of superiority. Just like there are white people that don't like black people without being racist. But I think both groups are rare and not really the issue at hand.

Racism and religious radicalization are two totally different topics and you can't draw a parallel between the two unless you are trying for Whataboutism (see above posts). What a mob of black kids does to a white kid is considered a crime and is condemned by people of all skin types. I think you would be hard pressed to find rational thinking people that support that. Plus this is not something that happens on a regular basis. If it was, I'm sure there would be a "White Lives Matter" organization set up to stop it (and they would be right to do so). However, a societal system set up by white people to keep black/brown people in the lower parts of society is not considered a crime. It's accepted as legal and simply the way life is by the majority. That's very different compared to your examples (that are all crimes) and it's what needs to change.
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#109

Post by Ian-S »

It's not a case of comparing x to y it's a case of using these as examples of why certain attitudes are prevelant and allowed in some quarters but not others. I'll pu it a bit more simply for you, BAME person does something, social reaction is "but that is only one person and is not representative of the greater community", white person does same thing, society: "all white people are far right racists".
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#110

Post by XcraigX »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago A) Apparently, you haven't a clue about the area. "Back during the time you are referring to (pre-Shea), it was a nice suburban area."
188th and whatever avenue (Bayside?) is a far cry from the slum of Flushing between Lawrence and Main, Northern and the LIRR. "E" for effort. And no, it has not come back whatsoever.
Happy to admit when I am wrong. The more specifics about the area make sense. Sorry for the assumption.
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago B) I don't have racism engrained in my DNA. And I know many.....nay, most.....people don't.

C) As long as they don't act in any way detrimental to someone, they have a right to their opinion, no matter how god-awful.
Again, as long as they don't act upon it. Throughout my posts, I emphasize that. Waving a flag, for instance hurts no one. Another again....it's only in that gray stuff if you let it.

Again, and for certain, no mas.
The American DNA is the way of life, not your specific DNA. And you are right most people are not racist. But there are people acting on it, setting policies, setting laws, repeatedly assigning abusive police to inner city areas, etc. That's the issue.

And I'm not sure what to make of your wearyness. I am tired also of all the crap going on in the USA. That's what makes me weary. When we add another name of a black person doing something minor get beaten or killed it's extremely tiring. I want to make it better. But your suggesting I've got it good enough already so I should sit down and shut up? Can't do that.

Edit: Apparently I can't do quotes right. Must be genetic... :roll:
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#111

Post by XcraigX »

Ian-S wrote: 3 years ago It's not a case of comparing x to y it's a case of using these as examples of why certain attitudes are prevelant and allowed in some quarters but not others. I'll pu it a bit more simply for you, BAME person does something, social reaction is "but that is only one person and is not representative of the greater community", white person does same thing, society: "all white people are far right racists".
I don't think of it that way and I agree it's wrong to see it that way.
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#112

Post by Ian-S »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago
Ian-S wrote: 3 years ago It's not a case of comparing x to y it's a case of using these as examples of why certain attitudes are prevelant and allowed in some quarters but not others. I'll pu it a bit more simply for you, BAME person does something, social reaction is "but that is only one person and is not representative of the greater community", white person does same thing, society: "all white people are far right racists".
I don't think of it that way and I agree it's wrong to see it that way.
I was about to come back and edit it to say this seems to be a UK specific phenomenon and I wasn't sure if it happened in other countries.
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#113

Post by jimclark »

Ian-S wrote: 3 years agoI was about to come back and edit it to say this seems to be a UK specific phenomenon and I wasn't sure if it happened in other countries.
Oh don't you think you're special..... :tongue: :mrgreen:

What's the population of the UK? Divide that into about 330,000,000 (about 5, no?) and then multiply that by the number of times you hear it and you've got what we put up with. But that's our "genetically ingrained", white sepremacist, racist, societies, huh? ;)

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#114

Post by MonteCristo »

Ian-S wrote: 3 years ago I'll pu it a bit more simply for you, BAME person does something, social reaction is "but that is only one person and is not representative of the greater community", white person does same thing, society: "all white people are far right racists".
I don't think it's "society" that says that. Rather, I think the vocal minority - which exists everywhere for just about any topic - will always jump on others if it suits their particular agenda/preconceptions/ideals.

White/black/Asian/south American/whatever person does something? "They're all like that," says some opposing group as a ridiculous generalisation.

Let's say I film a drone pilot who does something wrong. I film them cutting a bloody power line or something and laughing about it. I upload it to Facebook, and it gets 100k views. There are 200 comments, and half are screaming at drone users being useless pricks, who try to cause trouble and tie up government resources, shut down airports, cause noise and kill birds. A few commenters say that they know that drone pilot and that person is a prick who regularly does stupid stuff. Another section of commenters are responding to some comments saying drones can be used in conservation, inspecting power lines and saving money, etc.

100,000 people watch it, and only 0.2% really care enough to really make a fuss about it either way. If you saw that video comment thread you'd think there's a massive, massive problem with drones, or alternatively, that drones will save the us all. But is that really the case either way? Or are you getting riled up because a vocal minority is saying something that's a bit too extreme and that triggers you?

It might be intended to come from a good place (eg: identifying and trying to fix a very real problem - and the world has squillions of them), but sadly the shouty people are the ones that often end up sowing discord and creating even bigger boundaries and divisions between people that either didn't exist previously or strengthen those that did.
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#115

Post by jimclark »

MonteCristo wrote: 3 years agoIt might be intended to come from a good place (eg: identifying and trying to fix a very real problem - and the world has squillions of them), but sadly the shouty people are the ones that often end up sowing discord and creating even bigger boundaries and divisions between people that either didn't exist previously or strengthen those that did.
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#116

Post by Ian-S »

MonteCristo wrote: 3 years ago
Ian-S wrote: 3 years ago I'll pu it a bit more simply for you, BAME person does something, social reaction is "but that is only one person and is not representative of the greater community", white person does same thing, society: "all white people are far right racists".
I don't think it's "society" that says that. Rather, I think the vocal minority - which exists everywhere for just about any topic - will always jump on others if it suits their particular agenda/preconceptions/ideals.

White/black/Asian/south American/whatever person does something? "They're all like that," says some opposing group as a ridiculous generalisation.

Let's say I film a drone pilot who does something wrong. I film them cutting a bloody power line or something and laughing about it. I upload it to Facebook, and it gets 100k views. There are 200 comments, and half are screaming at drone users being useless pricks, who try to cause trouble and tie up government resources, shut down airports, cause noise and kill birds. A few commenters say that they know that drone pilot and that person is a prick who regularly does stupid stuff. Another section of commenters are responding to some comments saying drones can be used in conservation, inspecting power lines and saving money, etc.

100,000 people watch it, and only 0.2% really care enough to really make a fuss about it either way. If you saw that video comment thread you'd think there's a massive, massive problem with drones, or alternatively, that drones will save the us all. But is that really the case either way? Or are you getting riled up because a vocal minority is saying something that's a bit too extreme and that triggers you?

It might be intended to come from a good place (eg: identifying and trying to fix a very real problem - and the world has squillions of them), but sadly the shouty people are the ones that often end up sowing discord and creating even bigger boundaries and divisions between people that either didn't exist previously or strengthen those that did.
Unfortunately the shouty people (good term lol) are in a disproportionate amount of control, they run the media, local government, the police etc. So it is generally only their view that is given publicity and enforced (yes your point I know).

BTW, you'd have a hard time cutting a power line with a drone, kind of been there, done that, they are suprisingly tough (the power lines) and I've seen more than one model aircraft loose a fight with one, the twang is funny though lol.
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#117

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#118

Post by jimclark »

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#119

Post by acerogers58 »

:shock:
Response from Tyler Reddick...

Edit: Looks like he deleted it here’s a screenshot
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#120

Post by XcraigX »

acerogers58 wrote: 3 years ago :shock:
Response from Tyler Reddick...
Road and Track Magazine sums it up very well with a timeline, facts (nice for a change), the twitter feud with his supporter, and the responses from NASCAR and other drivers and team members.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsport ... -for-hoax/
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#121

Post by Cheeveer »

Bubba's reply. Which has way more likes and retweets.
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