NASCAR 2018 - News & Discussion

All NASCAR Cup and general stock car discussion, including the Xfinity, ARCA and any feeder series.
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LaraCroft2016
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#346

Post by LaraCroft2016 »

Bottom post of the previous page:

If you see the full season, you would say Harvick or Kyle Busch with 10 and 8 victories, Logano with only a late victory in the chase was enough to be the champion this year, are you gonna say it is fair or deserved?
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#347

Post by Antonov »

The driver with most points across such a long season is always the deserved winner :smiley:
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#348

Post by Vassago »

Antonov wrote: 5 years ago The driver with most points across such a long season is always the deserved winner :smiley:
But this is what the Chase is NOT!!! :evil: Points total means nothing since 2003.
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#349

Post by theracer120 »

Antonov wrote: 5 years ago The driver with most points across such a long season is always the deserved winner :smiley:
Not in NASCAR they aren't. They literally reset the points of the top 4 before the final race to make them equal which means that if you lose the final race then you lose the championship even if you've completely dominated the season until that point.

It is a fact that Logano would not have won the championship under the pre-playoff point system, or indeed any other point system used by a major series. Instead he would have finished 3rd or 4th in the points which would be well deserved.
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#350

Post by Ian-S »

It's deserved in the fact that Penske did their preparation for Miami only and just phoned it in for the others once he'd qualified, they played the system perfectly, he was in a race of four, not thirty-six, it's not their fault NASCAR created this system because of some perceived lack of interest due to the NFL.

There's plenty wrong with NASCAR, not just The Playoffs.
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#351

Post by John »

The rules are crap, sure. But they're equal for everyone.

That said, there's few sports where a backmarker who missed the playoffs can end the title hopes for a guy who has completely dominated the season. In the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc, it's a two-up battle for the championship. The other teams have packed up and gone home.

I sure hope they get rid of this stupid playoff system at some point.
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#352

Post by Ian-S »

That's what I mean, the rules are the same for everybody so if any of those final four turned up to Homstead assuming they'd win because they had the most wins during the year, then more fool them. Penske just did a better job of preparing than the rest of them, although I was a tad disappointed that Truex Jr didn't follow through on his threat from Martinsville, and he wonders why they walk all over him in general.
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#353

Post by theracer120 »

John wrote: 5 years ago The rules are crap, sure. But they're equal for everyone.

That said, there's few sports where a backmarker who missed the playoffs can end the title hopes for a guy who has completely dominated the season. In the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc, it's a two-up battle for the championship. The other teams have packed up and gone home.

I sure hope they get rid of this stupid playoff system at some point.
I wouldn't get your hopes up. It's gotten more ridiculous as time's gone on, when they first introduced the Chase in 04 they only reset the points once during the season and that was with 10 races to go.
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#354

Post by John »

theracer120 wrote: 5 years ago
John wrote: 5 years ago The rules are crap, sure. But they're equal for everyone.

That said, there's few sports where a backmarker who missed the playoffs can end the title hopes for a guy who has completely dominated the season. In the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, etc, it's a two-up battle for the championship. The other teams have packed up and gone home.

I sure hope they get rid of this stupid playoff system at some point.
I wouldn't get your hopes up. It's gotten more ridiculous as time's gone on, when they first introduced the Chase in 04 they only reset the points once during the season and that was with 10 races to go.
Yep. It's Nascar trying to recreate that 1992 season finale at Atlanta over and over again.

What they should start with, not that any of it's going to happen, is:
- Re-introduce Stock cars instead of these silhouette cars.
- Tear up the schedule and get more short tracks back. But then they'd have to get out of this contract bind that they're in.
- Make the cars harder to drive. There's way too much downforce.
- Get rid of the chase. Keep the stages if you want to, but don't throw a caution flag.
- Stop bending over backwards to please a crowd that won't be around for long anyway.

And probably 500 other things.
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#355

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Rather than the ridiculous stage 1 scenario, why do they not just drop that concept and have an equivalent length seperate qualifying race, with whatever points are awarded for the stage 1 results, followed later by the balance in a main race?

It is a concept that works well in some of the VASC endurance races like Sandown.

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#356

Post by John »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 5 years ago Rather than the ridiculous stage 1 scenario, why do they not just drop that concept and have an equivalent length seperate qualifying race, with whatever points are awarded for the stage 1 results, followed later by the balance in a main race?

It is a concept that works well in some of the VASC endurance races like Sandown.
Or just realize that 500 miles is too long to work week in and week out in the current world.
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#357

Post by erwin greven »

John wrote: 5 years ago
What they should start with, not that any of it's going to happen, is:
- 1 Re-introduce Stock cars instead of these silhouette cars.
- 2 Tear up the schedule and get more short tracks back. But then they'd have to get out of this contract bind that they're in.
- 3 Make the cars harder to drive. There's way too much downforce.
- 4 Get rid of the chase. Keep the stages if you want to, but don't throw a caution flag.
- 5 Stop bending over backwards to please a crowd that won't be around for long anyway.

And probably 500 other things.
1. How do you see Stock Cars actually? Underneath the silhouette car shapes, it is a further developed COT car. What should be stock in this chassis?
2. agreed. There should be more short tracks. Thing is some tracks have to invest hugely to get the tracks up to standard.
3. Ah, the 25,000 dollar opinion. Denny Hamlin said the same after the Phoenix race years ago. He got fined by Nascar. He was very right though.
4. The chase has only one goal: to get the championship decision as late in the season as possible.
5. That can be said to another main autosports series. Starts with an F and ends with an 1.
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#358

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

erwin greven wrote: 5 years ago
4. The chase has only one goal: to get the championship decision as late in the season as possible.
5. That can be said to another main autosports series. Starts with an F and ends with an 1.
Remember the ridiculous short lived F1 idea to make the final race a title decider..... double points for the final race. Thank God they ditched that idea after one year. Think it was 2014 at Abu Dhabi IIRC.

Rosberg went into the last race about 20 points behind, but despite starting from pole had car problems and finished out of the points... Lewis took the race win and 50 points to win the title by about 70 points. :roll:

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#359

Post by erwin greven »

Last year an American journalist made a list of all the chase seasons and made a calculation of how the title would have been decided when there was no chase.


Year: winner - would be winner without chase

2004: Kurt Busch Jeff Gordon

In 2004, Jeff Gordon would've kept the points lead throughout the last 10 races and pick up his 5th Championship. In fact, without the Chase, Kurt Busch finishes a measly 247 points behind Gordon.

2005: Tony Stewart

With or without the Chase, Stewart dominated towards the end of the year and cruises to a ~200 point win over Greg Biffle to pick up his 2nd championship.

2006: Jimmie Johnson

In 2006, Johnson won his first title by 56 points. Without the Chase, he would've barely done it, beating Matt Kenseth by 4 points.

2007: Jimmie Johnson Jeff Gordon

In 2007, Johnson won his 2nd consecutive title by 77 points over teammate Jeff Gordon. Without the Chase, Gordon cruises to a 353 point win over Johnson, after an impressive early-season, and Gordon gets a 6th championship.

2008: Jimmie Johnson Carl Edwards

In 2008, Johnson barely slipped past Edwards with a 69-point lead after Homestead. Without the Chase, Edwards gets a slight 16 point lead to beat Johnson and pick up his first championship.

2009: Jimmie Johnson

In 2009, Johnson was impressive throughout the season and won with a pretty good lead over Mark Martin. Without the Chase, he gets a 66-point lead over Jeff Gordon to claim his 2nd championship.

2010: Jimmie Johnson Kevin Harvick

The major 'Chase is flawed' argument. Harvick dominated the first 26 races but fell short during the Chase and lost to Hamlin & Johnson. Without the Chase, he manages to win his first championship by nearly 300 points.

2011: Tony Stewart Carl Edwards

The 2011 Chase ended with a tie between 1st and 2nd place, being Tony Stewart and Carl Edwards. Stewart broke the tie off of wins. Without the Chase, Edwards has a good enough points lead to prevail over 2nd place Kevin Harvick and win his 2nd championship.

2012: Brad Keselowski

Even without the Chase, Brad manages to keep his points ahead of the others and wins his first title.

2013: Jimmie Johnson

In 2013, Johnson managed to lead throughout the Chase, fighting off a fierce Matt Kenseth who was looking for his second. Without the Chase, Johnson still pulls off the championship win, and gets his 3rd championship.

2014: Kevin Harvick Jeff Gordon

Harvick managed to win the first ever 'NASCAR Playoff' grid after a victory at Homestead. Without the Chase, even the victory doesn't pull Harvick ahead of Gordon, who gets his 7th Championship.

2015: Kyle Busch Kevin Harvick

Busch won the Championship in 2015 after an impressive comeback, however, the Chase definitely aided him in his victory. Without the Chase, Busch gets a whopping 20th place, while Harvick cruises to his 2nd Championship.

2016: Jimmie Johnson Kevin Harvick

Johnson would be crushed without the Chase in his 2016 Title win. He performed poorly later in the season until the playoffs came around. Without the Chase, Johnson finishes in 8th while Harvick wins his 3rd Championship.

...

driver - actual titles - titles without the Chase

Jeff Gordon: 4 Championships 7 Championships

Kevin Harvick: 1 Championship 3 Championships

Carl Edwards: 0 Championships 2 Championships

Brad Keselowski: 1 Championship

Jimmie Johnson: 7 Championships 3 Championships

Tony Stewart: 3 Championships 2 Championships

Kurt Busch: 1 Championship 0 Championships

Kyle Busch: 1 Championship 0 Championships

So, Jeff Gordon would be tied with Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt at 7 Championships, while Jimmie Johnson would be down at 3 Championships.
Last years season:
2017 --- Actual: Martin Truex Jr. --- Full Season: Martin Truex Jr.

There's no doubt about this one--Truex was by far the driver to beat all year long. When your point lead under the new 40-to-1 system would have practically earned you the title with one race to go under the old Latford system, you know you've had a good year! (His full-season point lead was 162 over Kyle Busch heading into Homestead.) Truex led the series in virtually every category this year, and he would have easily won the championship under any reasonable point system.
And this year: i doubt Joey Logano would have won the title when Harvick and Ky. Busch won that many races. I think Harvick would have clinched his 4th title.
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#360

Post by kals »

Those comparisons are next to pointless (pardon the pun) as each year the teams and drivers play to the system. That's why Johnson was so successful as he and Knaus worked towards the play off.

Yes Logano won less and achieved less top 5s, however that is what the system is all about. Last man standing. It isn't about who is the best or fastest. Nascar want drama and headlines of the favourites falling by the wayside. It is shitty but it is what it is. Logano is a shitty champion, but he's a champion.

In NHL or NFL, the best team of the year doesn't always win. If that was the case the Washington Capitals would be a many time Stanley Cup winner. Yet they typically choke in the playoffs.
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#361

Post by John »

kals wrote: 5 years ago Those comparisons are next to pointless (pardon the pun) as each year the teams and drivers play to the system. That's why Johnson was so successful as he and Knaus worked towards the play off.

Yes Logano won less and achieved less top 5s, however that is what the system is all about. Last man standing. It isn't about who is the best or fastest. Nascar want drama and headlines of the favourites falling by the wayside. It is shitty but it is what it is. Logano is a shitty champion, but he's a champion.

In NHL or NFL, the best team of the year doesn't always win. If that was the case the Washington Capitals would be a many time Stanley Cup winner. Yet they typically choke in the playoffs.
Or the San Jose Sharks...

Yes. You’re right. It’s fun to speculate and such, but it’s a moot point at the end. The rules are what they are. A problem. Leave it at that.
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