2021 R7 & R8 - Detroit

Including the Indy 500 and all junior series leading up to IndyCar
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#106

Post by MonteCristo »

Bottom post of the previous page:

O'Ward is so damn exciting. The way he rides curbs is a joy to watch.

Rossi is so damn in the wars this year.

Meanwhile, Dixon at the start... so damn lucky.

Agree re: Penske tyre strategy. It would be fine for short sprint with fresh tyres, but not a long 20-lap stint.

And just because...

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#107

Post by John »

JoNew pitted when Kellet stalled at the end of pitlane because everyone was expecting race control to throw the yellow flag. He didn't mean to stay out that long at the end.
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#108

Post by MonteCristo »

John wrote: 2 years ago JoNew pitted when Kellet stalled at the end of pitlane because everyone was expecting race control to throw the yellow flag. He didn't mean to stay out that long at the end.
They were saying during the NBC telecast at the time when Power went in for the 2nd stop that it was odd that he wasn't on the reds for that stint because it reduces his options for the third and final stint, but the team justified it as having a brand new set of reds.

The same point applies for JoNew. Not sure if his tyres were brand new as well. But in any case...
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#109

Post by MonteCristo »

Cheeveer wrote: 2 years ago
Vassago wrote: 2 years ago If Ricciardo keeps sucking at McLaren I wonder if O'Ward gets some F1 consideration?

He could well be #1 title favorite the way things are going for him this season.
Ricciardo has a multi-year contract, but O'Ward is the real deal for sure. The F1 test he has been promised is surely a lot more than just a fun trackday now.
If Ricciardo is crap for the rest of the season, I can see him being benched.

Or doing a seat swap.
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#110

Post by John »

It is weird that both McLarens F1 team and ASPM are having the same disparity between their two drivers right now. Pato leads the championship and Felix is dead last.

Granted he could have won one or both of the Texas races and he got stung hard by the drive-through at Indy, but still, he can't get the car working on road courses and it's puzzling.
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#111

Post by Cheeveer »

Felix misfortune is verging on absurd right now. Nothing has gone his way this year. He was on it now in Detroit, same strategy as Ericsson and ahead of him on track, and throttle stucks.
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#112

Post by Ruslan »

Cheeveer wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
John wrote: 2 years ago

Race 1 highlights. Askew replaces FRO tonight.
So a back of the pack pay driver in F1 wins.
what's your point?
It is just a observation. On the other hand, why did such an observation trigger a response from you?

But, of course, there was a point in the making the observation, and it is a point that I made a while ago on this forum that appears to have annoyed a few people; which is that this series is really not as good as, or what Indy car racing was from say 1911 to 2000 or so. It is a pale shadow of the premier American racing series that it used to be. In fact, one could argue that it was the premier racing series in the world from say 1911-1920. It is clearly not that right now, with a NASCAR star flailing around in the rear getting a lot of the share of the press, a back-of-the-pack pay F1 driver winning races, etc.

That said, Pato O'Ward is a breath of fresh air. I really liked his drive yesterday (I did watch the race). Here appears to be a fresh new driver of some ability that may be going places. I had not seen anyone in Indy Car racing that I would consider worth moving up to F1 since Montoya first was there (1999 & 2000). Needless to say, I never considered Christiano De Matta (1999-2002) and Sebastian Bourdais (2003-2007) to be really top-level drivers, and unfortunately, I was proven right with their two-year stints in F1 in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009 respectively. Since then, no one has been pulled up from Indy car racing to F1.
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#113

Post by John »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Cheeveer wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
John wrote: 2 years ago

Race 1 highlights. Askew replaces FRO tonight.
So a back of the pack pay driver in F1 wins.
what's your point?
It is just a observation. On the other hand, why did such an observation trigger a response from you?

But, of course, there was a point in the making the observation, and it is a point that I made a while ago on this forum that appears to have annoyed a few people; which is that this series is really not as good as, or what Indy car racing was from say 1911 to 2000 or so. It is a pale shadow of the premier American racing series that it used to be. In fact, one could argue that it was the premier racing series in the world from say 1911-1920. It is clearly not that right now, with a NASCAR star flailing around in the rear getting a lot of the share of the press, a back-of-the-pack pay F1 driver winning races, etc.

That said, Pato O'Ward is a breath of fresh air. I really liked his drive yesterday (I did watch the race). Here appears to be a fresh new driver of some ability that may be going places. I had not seen anyone in Indy Car racing that I would consider worth moving up to F1 since Montoya first was there (1999 & 2000). Needless to say, I never considered Christiano De Matta (1999-2002) and Sebastian Bourdais (2003-2007) to be really top-level drivers, and unfortunately, I was proven right with their two-year stints in F1 in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009 respectively. Since then, no one has been pulled up from Indy car racing to F1.
I do agree with you regarding Pato. I consider him the biggest talent in the US right now (I don't really see Herta as F1 material) but the biggest issue he will face will no doubt be the Pirelli tyres and getting to grips with how an F1 car drives compared to an Indycar. His balls to walls, all out attacking style would have worked great in F1 in 1975, it works great in Indycar today, but I'm not sure it will translate all that well to F1.

As for the age-old discussion of IndyCar today vis á vi IndyCar of the 1990's: We know. It's a shame. But the sport is on the up. Besides, IndyCar wasn't that stacked in the 1990's anyway, excluding Mansell. Have a look at 1993, where we'll exclude Mansell as that was an oddity.

Mario Andretti was 500 years old.
Foyt retired that year.
Eddie Cheever was an also-ran in F1.
Emmo was 500 years old as well.
Gugelmin was an also-ran in F1.
As was Teo Fabi.

Stefan Johansson was the only regular driver who wasn't a gazillion years old (in racing terms) and still carved out a good F1 career. As for the rest? Vasser, Robby Gordon, Arie Luyendyk, Raul Boesel, Adrian Fernandes, Paul Tracy, Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal and the like? They're no worse or better than Scott Dixon, Josef Newgarden, Will Power, Alex Rossi and the ones we have today.

Michael Andretti had of course left for his ill-fated F1 spell that year. So talent wise I'd say IndyCar is as good as it's ever been. It's never been "up there" alongside F1 in terms of raw driving talent. Sure, when JPM and Greg Moore raced in the late 1990's, they were quality. But the field was still filled to the brim with drivers who either made a stink in IndyCar, or had reached their peak in IndyCar/CART.

What's lacking right now is the fanbase, and media interest, which is nowhere near what it was in the 1990's.
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#114

Post by erwin greven »

John wrote: 2 years ago What's lacking right now is the fanbase, and media interest, which is nowhere near what it was in the 1990's.
It's not a world championship. Its a typical series run on one continent. The only race that sticks out is the Indy500. Outside that, i see or hear no interest in Indycar.
It could be improve here in the Netherlands though: Rinus van Kalmthout is doing good there. We can see the races live on Ziggo Racing, when we have a subscription. And now Ziggo loses the rights of broadcasting F1 next year. Could be a small chance for Indycar.

Another factor is the availability of other racing series on YouTube. Local F3 series, GT3, GT4, TCR, SRO.
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#115

Post by Ruslan »

John wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Cheeveer wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
John wrote: 2 years ago

Race 1 highlights. Askew replaces FRO tonight.
So a back of the pack pay driver in F1 wins.
what's your point?
It is just a observation. On the other hand, why did such an observation trigger a response from you?

But, of course, there was a point in the making the observation, and it is a point that I made a while ago on this forum that appears to have annoyed a few people; which is that this series is really not as good as, or what Indy car racing was from say 1911 to 2000 or so. It is a pale shadow of the premier American racing series that it used to be. In fact, one could argue that it was the premier racing series in the world from say 1911-1920. It is clearly not that right now, with a NASCAR star flailing around in the rear getting a lot of the share of the press, a back-of-the-pack pay F1 driver winning races, etc.

That said, Pato O'Ward is a breath of fresh air. I really liked his drive yesterday (I did watch the race). Here appears to be a fresh new driver of some ability that may be going places. I had not seen anyone in Indy Car racing that I would consider worth moving up to F1 since Montoya first was there (1999 & 2000). Needless to say, I never considered Christiano De Matta (1999-2002) and Sebastian Bourdais (2003-2007) to be really top-level drivers, and unfortunately, I was proven right with their two-year stints in F1 in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009 respectively. Since then, no one has been pulled up from Indy car racing to F1.
I do agree with you regarding Pato. I consider him the biggest talent in the US right now (I don't really see Herta as F1 material) but the biggest issue he will face will no doubt be the Pirelli tyres and getting to grips with how an F1 car drives compared to an Indycar. His balls to walls, all out attacking style would have worked great in F1 in 1975, it works great in Indycar today, but I'm not sure it will translate all that well to F1.

As for the age-old discussion of IndyCar today vis á vi IndyCar of the 1990's: We know. It's a shame. But the sport is on the up. Besides, IndyCar wasn't that stacked in the 1990's anyway, excluding Mansell. Have a look at 1993, where we'll exclude Mansell as that was an oddity.

Mario Andretti was 500 years old.
Foyt retired that year.
Eddie Cheever was an also-ran in F1.
Emmo was 500 years old as well.
Gugelmin was an also-ran in F1.
As was Teo Fabi.

Stefan Johansson was the only regular driver who wasn't a gazillion years old (in racing terms) and still carved out a good F1 career. As for the rest? Vasser, Robby Gordon, Arie Luyendyk, Raul Boesel, Adrian Fernandes, Paul Tracy, Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal and the like? They're no worse or better than Scott Dixon, Josef Newgarden, Will Power, Alex Rossi and the ones we have today.

Michael Andretti had of course left for his ill-fated F1 spell that year. So talent wise I'd say IndyCar is as good as it's ever been. It's never been "up there" alongside F1 in terms of raw driving talent. Sure, when JPM and Greg Moore raced in the late 1990's, they were quality. But the field was still filled to the brim with drivers who either made a stink in IndyCar, or had reached their peak in IndyCar/CART.

What's lacking right now is the fanbase, and media interest, which is nowhere near what it was in the 1990's.
Pretty much agree with everything you say here... except:

I am really don't think that the current field of drivers is as good as the field in the early 1990s (when CART was at its peak).

In the end, the problem with Indy car started in the early 1970s when the car culture kind of came to halt in the United States, very much signaled by the gas crisis of 1973. Indy car was in deep trouble by the late 1970s, which is why CART was formed. They revitalized the series for 15 years before Tony George decided to bury it.

There was a time when the Indianapolis winner was front page news and known across the country. Nowadays, the only reason most people know the winner of Indy was because he won "Dancing with the Stars."
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#116

Post by Vassago »

John wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Cheeveer wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
John wrote: 2 years ago

Race 1 highlights. Askew replaces FRO tonight.
So a back of the pack pay driver in F1 wins.
what's your point?
It is just a observation. On the other hand, why did such an observation trigger a response from you?

But, of course, there was a point in the making the observation, and it is a point that I made a while ago on this forum that appears to have annoyed a few people; which is that this series is really not as good as, or what Indy car racing was from say 1911 to 2000 or so. It is a pale shadow of the premier American racing series that it used to be. In fact, one could argue that it was the premier racing series in the world from say 1911-1920. It is clearly not that right now, with a NASCAR star flailing around in the rear getting a lot of the share of the press, a back-of-the-pack pay F1 driver winning races, etc.

That said, Pato O'Ward is a breath of fresh air. I really liked his drive yesterday (I did watch the race). Here appears to be a fresh new driver of some ability that may be going places. I had not seen anyone in Indy Car racing that I would consider worth moving up to F1 since Montoya first was there (1999 & 2000). Needless to say, I never considered Christiano De Matta (1999-2002) and Sebastian Bourdais (2003-2007) to be really top-level drivers, and unfortunately, I was proven right with their two-year stints in F1 in 2003-2004 and 2008-2009 respectively. Since then, no one has been pulled up from Indy car racing to F1.
I do agree with you regarding Pato. I consider him the biggest talent in the US right now (I don't really see Herta as F1 material) but the biggest issue he will face will no doubt be the Pirelli tyres and getting to grips with how an F1 car drives compared to an Indycar. His balls to walls, all out attacking style would have worked great in F1 in 1975, it works great in Indycar today, but I'm not sure it will translate all that well to F1.

As for the age-old discussion of IndyCar today vis á vi IndyCar of the 1990's: We know. It's a shame. But the sport is on the up. Besides, IndyCar wasn't that stacked in the 1990's anyway, excluding Mansell. Have a look at 1993, where we'll exclude Mansell as that was an oddity.

Mario Andretti was 500 years old.
Foyt retired that year.
Eddie Cheever was an also-ran in F1.
Emmo was 500 years old as well.
Gugelmin was an also-ran in F1.
As was Teo Fabi.

Stefan Johansson was the only regular driver who wasn't a gazillion years old (in racing terms) and still carved out a good F1 career. As for the rest? Vasser, Robby Gordon, Arie Luyendyk, Raul Boesel, Adrian Fernandes, Paul Tracy, Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal and the like? They're no worse or better than Scott Dixon, Josef Newgarden, Will Power, Alex Rossi and the ones we have today.

Michael Andretti had of course left for his ill-fated F1 spell that year. So talent wise I'd say IndyCar is as good as it's ever been. It's never been "up there" alongside F1 in terms of raw driving talent. Sure, when JPM and Greg Moore raced in the late 1990's, they were quality. But the field was still filled to the brim with drivers who either made a stink in IndyCar, or had reached their peak in IndyCar/CART.

What's lacking right now is the fanbase, and media interest, which is nowhere near what it was in the 1990's.
Cheever wasn't doing a terrible job. Scored four podiums in title-capable Renault in 1983 - his first season in a very good car. The switch to Alfa Romeo was a very bad decision (maybe influenced by the fact he lived in Italy so wanted to drive for an Italian team?) and the two seasons were very unreliable even by 1980s standards. Just a ton of engine/turbo issues all over the place. He recovered well at Arrows, beat out Derek Warwick in the first season. It's been few years since I last watched the 1990 CART season but Cheever got a lot of hype when he came over to drive for Ganassi. Then he really should have won at Nazareth in 1995 only for AJ Foyt team to blow it up with not putting enough fuel on his car (right after the pitstop they knew they didn't put all the fuel in).
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#117

Post by Ruslan »

I think @John overstates his point. Clearly there was a lot of capability in the U.S. fields from 1980-2000. More so then there is today. It started declining after that.
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#118

Post by MonteCristo »

All in all, I think this is the strongest field since the split.

We've got young guns like Herta and O'Ward, who could probably do a job in F1 at a decent team (I'm in no way saying they're WDC material as such, just that they wouldn't be complete fish out of water if they had enough money for a couple of years and could forge a career provided they got some of the luck *any* driver needs).

We've got solid drivers who are quick professionals who never had a chance in F1 and maybe could have made it: Dixon, Newgarden, Power.

We've got some guys who made it to F1: Grosjean, Rossi, Bourdais, Sato, Ericsson... *cough* Chilton doesn't count.

That's almost half the grid right there who wouldn't be out of place on an F1 grid. Sure, a lot of them are old now, but so are people like Kimi or Fernando.

Then the likes of Hunter-Reay, Rosenqvist, Daly, Harvey, Rahal, Pagenaud, *Veekay, *McLaughlin, *Palou are solid professionals but realistically unremarkable (*Too early to say for sure - they could be ranked higher-up). Indycar always had these sorts of drivers, as has F1 (arguably about a third of the F1 grid at the moment falls into this category... you could replace them tomorrow and the series wouldn't be any worse off).

Because of the current parity in Indycar, it's harder for the likes of a Montoya or Zanardi to stand out than they could have previously when there were different chassis (both in manufacturers and ages of chassis), engines, tyres, and they could really shine when paired with a top team.
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#119

Post by Ruslan »

MonteCristo wrote: 2 years ago All in all, I think this is the strongest field since the split.
It might very well be. It got pretty sad for a while.
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