Morality and the CPdB

Our pioneering project aims to identify and catalogue every crash photo in racing history. We cannot do it alone, so if you have any spare time, view this forum and sign up to help!
Jacob
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 752
Joined: 7 years ago
Real Name: Jacob
Favourite Motorsport: Historic racing
Favourite Racing Car: Ferrari 312B
Favourite Driver: Jacky Ickx & all other old heroes
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife/ old Spa/ Schleiz

#31

Post by Jacob »

Bottom post of the previous page:

hi,
Is there a posibilty for a closed space in the CPDB for these photos, where only researchers, journalists and member have a special access? But completely hidden from public
"It´s not a matter of talent, it´s a matter of luck. Pure Luck:" - Jacky Ickx
Melissadc
New Member
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 2 years ago
Real Name: Melissa Dal Corobbo
Favourite Motorsport: Indy Car
Favourite Driver: AJ foyt
Favourite Circuit: Indy Prather

#32

Post by Melissadc »

As a member of John Masariu’s family, we have never seen this image before. While it is tough to look at, it is an important piece of our family history. It is appreciated.

I respect the thoughtfulness that has gone into the display of photos such as my grandfather’s and the groups choice not to display other more graphic ones of higher digital quality.
User avatar
Motorsportrace
Supreme Member
Supreme Member
Posts: 3870
Joined: 13 years ago
Real Name: M
Location: Milan

#33

Post by Motorsportrace »

Melissadc wrote: 2 years ago As a member of John Masariu’s family, we have never seen this image before. While it is tough to look at, it is an important piece of our family history. It is appreciated.

I respect the thoughtfulness that has gone into the display of photos such as my grandfather’s and the groups choice not to display other more graphic ones of higher digital quality.
That was a photo I had found a lot of time ago.
I'm glad you appreciate our work, and are not against it.
I do what I do for historical purposes only, without the intention of offending anyone.
Motorsportrace
User avatar
Jesper Hvid
Permanent Ban
Permanent Ban
Posts: 35539
Joined: 20 years ago

#34

Post by Jesper Hvid »

Jacob wrote: 3 years ago hi,
Is there a posibilty for a closed space in the CPDB for these photos, where only researchers, journalists and member have a special access? But completely hidden from public
No.
User avatar
Starling
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 2 years ago
Real Name: Paola
Favourite Motorsport: F1
Favourite Driver: Ayrton Senna
Favourite Circuit: Monza, Montecarlo
Car(s) Currently Owned: Nissan Micra (vintage in 3 yrs)

#35

Post by Starling »

Sorry for resurrecting this months-old thread, but I have read it with interest because I got here through the CPdB, in particular the Tom Pryce page. I appreciate that NSFW pics can be avoided. I didn't. And I do question my attitude.

About the issues that have been mentioned, I totally agree: no autopsy pics. Not only I suppose they are more horrible than anything posted on the CPdB, but I think there's a legal aspect to consider, the respect for a legal procedure; also because unfortunately (having read how autopsies are done) they feel dehumanizing in their technicality. It's different from a dead person in a casket: they have been laid out like that out of love and respect, exactly for a tribute to the human being that once inhabited that shell. And that in our case was a driver who loved what he did and was loved for it.

With this, I also mean I agree that it's important to show the consequences, even when it's a dead person in a casket, or worse, bleeding or burning by the track. All the technical insight that can be gained from the non-NSFW fatal crash pics ultimately leads to this: death. I have too many "friends" who say "F1 is too safe, we don't see accidents", and I would like to show them those pics, to make them understand what they wish for. I fear most of them would not understand anyway.

Beyond this, I feel it's a very personal thing. After Senna died, I spent 12 years avoiding anything about the accident, for fear of coming across something that would horrify me so much that I would stop loving him. I did not understand I had already stopped loving him; I was just mourning him, and not even fully. One day something clicked, and I began documenting myself about the circumstances of his death. It was hard, but it broke the spell. Maybe I had become desensitized during those years, but suddenly I could love him again, in a different way than when he was alive, and with a painful saudade that he was not, but I recovered him somehow.

Now the really tough question is: if track photographer Angelo Orsi hadn't been so decent and loving towards his friend Ayrton as to give his death pictures to the family, would I look at them?

I think I would. I'm currently living this experience with Tom Pryce, a driver I discovered very recently. For me, imagining is much worse than knowing. I could go off on a tangent about Tom's death pics, especially the one linked above that shows he was NOT decapitated or shattered beyond recognition (I don't advise clicking the link anyway). It makes me sad that his wife Nella was never allowed to see him (source: The Lost Generation book), because he did still have a head and a face.

But this is too subjective. For example, despite my compassion for the human being, Dale Earnhardt's cockpit pics don't shock me. All I see is blood, no more than a lock of hair or a fingernail. Am I morbid? I really don't know. I hope I will understand better by discussing on this forum. Thanks for letting me vent.
Nada pode me separar do amor de Deus.
User avatar
hollie3sa
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 2992
Joined: 9 years ago

#36

Post by hollie3sa »

Motorsportrace wrote: 2 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 2 years ago Removed the crash of Allen Craig Mouton at the request of the family.
This can be a "precedent".
What should we do in such cases?
I can understand that you don't want legal troubles, but, as far as I can see, that entry didn't contain anything graphic and/or distressing.
The problem is that the entry was one of the first things that showed up when you searched for his name in Google. And that can be a problem.

Also, the accident was not posted here, but only in the CPDB.
I feel like this is the potential beginning of a discussion that belongs here.

@Motorsportrace: Yes, this can not just be or become a precedent, it already is one. And a good one at that.

@Starling. There is no need to be sorry about 'resurrecting' a thread that is timeless. In fact, without knowing about the short-term applicability it would contain and maybe even with something entirely different in mind, you've mentioned one hugely important thing.
Beyond this, I feel it's a very personal thing.
Who are we to judge the emotions of anyone when faced with pictures that, show the (circumstances of the) death of a person. Even more so, who are we to judge these emotions when the deceased was a family member.
If the family feels that removing the pictures from the internet, for whatever reason it might be - and i'd not need to specifically know them - is what they want, I'd certainly follow that request. Would you want that the first thing that comes up, when googling your (e. g.) father's name is pictures of the accident he lost his life in?

---

Without any impact on my judgement of @PTRACER's decision to remove the pictures of Mouton's accident from the CPdB: May I ask how their request was phrased?
User avatar
Starling
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 2 years ago
Real Name: Paola
Favourite Motorsport: F1
Favourite Driver: Ayrton Senna
Favourite Circuit: Monza, Montecarlo
Car(s) Currently Owned: Nissan Micra (vintage in 3 yrs)

#37

Post by Starling »

Has anybody noticed Pinterest's latest ugly trend? If I google Tom Pryce in the Images section, a generic pic comes up with the cutesy caption "12 Tom Pryce ideas" or something like it. Sometimes the pic is of the accident so one hopefully knows not to click, but other times it's a normal pic and inside you find the bad ones. It must be bots, because the titles are always similar and they pop up whenever I look for something ("20 Is my cat overweight? ideas").

Also, I have a Pinterest account via Google, like on several other sites, and if I click on such an image by mistake it all ends up in my timeline, displacing pictures i did look for. I've even found my whole Tumblr page under the title "47 [insert weird topic] ideas". Is all this even legal?
Nada pode me separar do amor de Deus.
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#38

Post by PTRACER »

Starling wrote: 2 years ago Has anybody noticed Pinterest's latest ugly trend? If I google Tom Pryce in the Images section, a generic pic comes up with the cutesy caption "12 Tom Pryce ideas" or something like it. Sometimes the pic is of the accident so one hopefully knows not to click, but other times it's a normal pic and inside you find the bad ones. It must be bots, because the titles are always similar and they pop up whenever I look for something ("20 Is my cat overweight? ideas").

Also, I have a Pinterest account via Google, like on several other sites, and if I click on such an image by mistake it all ends up in my timeline, displacing pictures i did look for. I've even found my whole Tumblr page under the title "47 [insert weird topic] ideas". Is all this even legal?
Pinterest is one of the most annoying sites on the web for that. It seems to have filled Google with rubbish search results, most of which you cannot see because you need to login to view whatever it is. And even then, there is no guarantee that the result shown actually contains the info you wanted. Usually it is unrelated.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
Post Reply