What do you think is the greatest Circuit in the world?

wialniaz · #91

Bottom post of the previous page:

nihil wrote:Hmmmm... Re-reading this thread and I'm struck by the number of people electing the old Spa as 'the greatest circuit'. Going to be a heretic on this subject: beautiful as it was, old Spa was a bit... well, boring.

Ok, so it was a high speed circuit, but there wasn't a lot for a driver to do when not navigating through a few key points that utterly determined the achievement of a fast and competitive lap.

Boring AND dangerous: a unique combination certainly, but not one that classifies it as great in my books.

In all honesty, i really don't think you would find it boring for one single second in the 60s F1 car, sliding around at 300 kph and facing death every lap.

Sure the corners were sleek, and the circuit was dangerous as hell, but last thing i'd call it would be boring. Unless you appreciate the circuits only from the viewers point of view. Then yeah it could be a bit dull.

But having driven that road myself, i think i wouldn't really like to do the same thing again at speed even in a safe race car, let alone those old F1 cans with open tops

kals · #92

nihil wrote:Hmmmm... Re-reading this thread and I'm struck by the number of people electing the old Spa as 'the greatest circuit'. Going to be a heretic on this subject: beautiful as it was, old Spa was a bit... well, boring.

Ok, so it was a high speed circuit, but there wasn't a lot for a driver to do when not navigating through a few key points that utterly determined the achievement of a fast and competitive lap.

Boring AND dangerous: a unique combination certainly, but not one that classifies it as great in my books.

I'm sure that if you asked any driver who had driven the old Spa circuit whether they thought it was boring, I doubt any of them would have said yes. What are you basing your opinion on? rFactor, GPLegends? That's like saying that the old Hockenheim was boring, just because it was long fast straight - chicane, long fast straight - chicane...

Your point almost suggests that the old Spa was easy, because "there wasn't a lot for a driver to do when not navigating through a few key points"... which it quite clearly wasn't.

ReneLotus · #93

I have only seen the old version of Spa through GPL, and I must say it is one of the more challenging tracks. It is very difficult to drive a complete lap without any mistakes and of you make one, it will cost you a lot of time. The turns themselves are blindingly quick and tricky. So, for a driver it was a challenging track. For a spectator it might be boring. But if you were standing near any of the corners it must have been amazing.

#94

there were a lot of "mens" corners. Eau Rouge/Radillion, Masta, Blanchimont, Clubhouse Corner.

nihil · #95

erwin greven wrote:there were a lot of "mens" corners. Eau Rouge/Radillion, Masta, Blanchimont, Clubhouse Corner.

Eau Rouge/Radillon, Blanchimont, and La Source are all still there on the existing Spa, which is, IMHO, a far superior circuit. But that's mainly because I prefer my racing to be more than a test of reflexes, more than a measure of testosterone levels, more than a measure of outright speed.

That's all part of it, but if those are going to be the measure of greatness, then why not Dundrod, why not the Northwest 200? Both are just as testing, just as picturesque, but have the added bonus of still being in use, and so don't suffer the rose-tinted blight of hindsight.

HC · #96

I can understand Nihil´s point. Its a bit like superspeedway racing. It looks like the drivers are on the automatic pilot, till it goes wrong that is. Maybe the old Spa circuit wasn´t the most technical (understatement) but I think the atmosphere must have been fantastic. I´ve also driven the old roads and it must have been very crazy to see those F1 cars from the 60´s race through the valley and run just next to the houses.

Its not that much different from other old circuits, or the new ones like Nihil mentions. You go straight from point A to B and then turn, next up you go from B to C and turn again. But what makes it different from the others is simply the setting. While most of these street circuits were located in the middle of nowhere, running on flat open roads, the Spa circuit was located in the middle of nature. Elevation changes, trees and bushes did make it a very awesome looking circuit.

Oh yeah, don´t know if I posted in here yet. But mine must go to Montjuich Park, simply for the awesome location.

#97

The old Spa was also a test of bravery - something which a lot of other circuits don't provide today.

#98

PTRACER wrote:The old Spa was also a test of bravery - something which a lot of other circuits don't provide today.

Some of Spa's corners are, or where, corners where you would lift slightly. And the amount of reducing trottle showed if you were brave (or stupid) or not.

Like i mentioned in an other topic before, Chris Amon took in the last lap of the last F1 GP on the old Spa circuit, Masta full trottle. No one had done that before or since. He was 2 seconds faster that lap than Pedro Rodrigues.

PTfan54 · #99

erwin greven wrote:Like i mentioned in an other topic before, Chris Amon took in the last lap of the last F1 GP on the old Spa circuit, Masta full trottle. No one had done that before or since. He was 2 seconds faster that lap than Pedro Rodrigues.

wialniaz · #100

erwin greven wrote: Like i mentioned in an other topic before, Chris Amon took in the last lap of the last F1 GP on the old Spa circuit, Masta full trottle. No one had done that before or since. He was 2 seconds faster that lap than Pedro Rodrigues.

Never knew that but what an amazing fact!
Masta does actually point out the difference between simracing and real track driving. Since i dare saying i have some experience in both, Masta just proves my point:

What does it take to take Masta flat on GPL? Just accuracy. If you mess up, you start all over again, but that's it. While if you mess up in reality, you wont start shit unless reincarnation actually exists

So the thing is, in reality it's accuracy + huge balls of steel. Something that motor racing has stopped requiring in recent decade.

Seriously as i mentioned before, Masta in real world is just SO much tighter. I couldn't believe it was the same corner. In an ordinary road car 160 kph would be all you could go there, well unless you're the like of Chris Amon.

Tommie van Ostade · #101

I've been there too and I'd say the GPL track doesn't really do the real track justice. I mean, it's fairly close in terms of shape but altitudes and with of the track are not accurate. The real track is twice as narrow as the GPL track. Eau Rouge, Blanchimont, Les Combes, Stavelot and Burnenville are quite nice, but I'd say the Masta turn has the radiusses of both turns wrong (they are slightly too sharp in GPL, IMHO) and Malmédy is so different I didn't even recognise it untill we already passed it. I'd say it was probably flat-out in the sixties. There's almost NO elevation difference in real life there while in GPL it is like driving Eau Rouge the wrong way.

I think a track should require a combination of guts, ability to show driver skill and ability to show car performance. So a driver who is really good but has an average car is about level with an average driver who has a good car. The track has to be challenging for spectators, drivers ánd manufacturers. It would be degrading for the engineers if a track tried to even out the relative car performances in my opinion. The Nürburgring Nordschleife has it all in my opinion, that's why it's the greatest circuit in the world for me, of the circuits that I know that is.

All modern racetracks (even the new Spa) no longer have gravel traps but have this stupid tarmac instead. That just sucks ass because a driver now knows he can make a mistake and get away with it, taking the factor 'guts' and also a lot of the factor 'driver skill' totally out of the equasion. I mean, a driver should not get injured or anything if he makes a mistake, but a little bit of punishment like a broken wing or retirement is much more fair to the drivers who have more skill and confidence in their skill and áre able to drive the car through the corner successfully. With a gravel trap, a driver who is not as skilled will slow down more since he doesn't want to wreck his car, whilst without one a driver will just go as fast as possible and take the tarmac runoff whenever he messed up the corner. It levels out the competition and is unfair to more skilled drivers in my opinion. Thankfully nobody at CPZ (Circuit Park Zandvoort) have ever been stupid enough to lay down a piece of tarmac in the Tarzancorner or Scheivlak at Zandvoort. I hope it will stay that way

. Bahrain is a laugh.

Tommie.

nihil · #102

kals wrote:That's like saying that the old Hockenheim was boring, just because it was long fast straight - chicane, long fast straight - chicane...

Yep, and Reims too... a drag race between two hairpins that goes on for an hour or two...

I'm not alone in this opinion. If you watch the Lap of the Gods DVD, you'll hear Hockenheim described as a dreary place, where spectators are herded like sheep into a small arena, and memorable only as the track that killed Jim Clark.

These circuits are memorable because of the era; an era of racing before commercial sponsorship turned drivers into tradeable commodities, and cars into very fast fag packets (actually I quite like seventies graphics, but you know what I mean...). I'm really not sure what qualifies as a great circuit, since great racing can take place in the dreariest of places (Birmingham for example...)

Andy · #103

Well at the old Hockenheim I never was in the stadium section around Sachskurve but out in the woods betting on which car would appear next only by judging the carsounds. I have not returned to there after they changed it all over.
The only races I would attend there nowadays are club races on the short circuit since it almost remained the same

futuretiger9 · #104

Up until the mid-1990s, the "old" Hockenheim was derided as bland, and excessively hard on machinery. I would venture to suggest that most people would openly welcome its return to the F1 calendar today. It would be a refreshing departure from the increasingly homogenous circuits of today.

In the 1970s and 1980s it was being compared against Kyalami, Watkins Glen, Interlagos, Brands Hatch, Mosport, Spa, et al. It is funny how perspectives change over time.

How about under-rated circuits? My vote would go to Estoril. I always loved the long pit straight and the great corners that preceded and followed it. It suffered from poor facilities and a lack of run-off areas, though.

Andy · #105

I quite like the old Interlagos infield, the longer circuit there

futuretiger9 · #106

Andy wrote:I quite like the old Interlagos infield, the longer circuit there

Watching footage of the F1 races from the 1970s at Interlagos, that area of the track is so vast, and the corners so long and sweeping, it makes the cars look small and curiously slow.