1965-1969 F1 Cars - Technical Data

Racing events, drivers, cars or anything else from the past.
Post Reply
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

1965-1969 F1 Cars - Technical Data

#1

Post by PTRACER »

I have BHP/torque figures, dimensions, car weights etc. for multiple races of the 1967 season, but if you have any additional data it would be really useful.

Right now I am looking for anything related to top speed figures, downforce, cornering speeds etc for those seasons. Or anything related to handling/engine characteristics.

Later I will share a spreadsheet with all the data I have collected.

Just for starters, I learned yesterday that the 1969 Lotus 49B was generating 180kg of downforce at 150mph, which is a lot more than I was expecting.

Top speeds were up at 196mph in Spa in 1967 but I'd like to know how much they dropped with drag in the seasons after that.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#2

Post by PTRACER »

Found some interesting facts about Silvio Moser's Cooper T77-ATS.

The official site says that the car was running a CS-6 speed gearbox but reviewing the pics shows a Colotti T32 which definitely only had five gears.

The story behind the ATS engine? The engine came from an ATS 2500 GTS sportscar - chassis 2004 - that was given to Alf Francis (Stirling Moss' long time mechanic) as payment (Francis was employed by ATS at the time). Naturally Francis took the engine out and decided to enlarge it from 2.5 to 2.7L and put it in the back of an F1 car. And why not? Only 12 2500 GTS's were made so it's not like they are worth anything!

At any rate, the GTS engine only produced 241bhp and when Climax enlarged their FPFs to 2.7L it only yielded an extra 15bhp. So you can imagine how slow and outclassed Moser's Cooper was against the 400bhp Lotus, Ferrari and Eagle.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
User avatar
Everso Biggyballies
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 48988
Joined: 18 years ago
Real Name: Chris
Favourite Motorsport: Anything that goes left and right.
Favourite Racing Car: Too Many to mention
Favourite Driver: Kimi,Niki,Jim(none called Michael)
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife, Spa, Mt Panorama.
Car(s) Currently Owned: Audi SQ5 3.0L V6 TwinTurbo
Location: Just moved 3 klms further away so now 11 klms from Albert Park, Melbourne.

#3

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

PTRACER wrote: 3 months ago Found some interesting facts about Silvio Moser's Cooper T77-ATS.

The official site says that the car was running a CS-6 speed gearbox but reviewing the pics shows a Colotti T32 which definitely only had five gears.

The story behind the ATS engine? The engine came from an ATS 2500 GTS sportscar - chassis 2004 - that was given to Alf Francis (Stirling Moss' long time mechanic) as payment (Francis was employed by ATS at the time). Naturally Francis took the engine out and decided to enlarge it from 2.5 to 2.7L and put it in the back of an F1 car. And why not? Only 12 2500 GTS's were made so it's not like they are worth anything!

At any rate, the GTS engine only produced 241bhp and when Climax enlarged their FPFs to 2.7L it only yielded an extra 15bhp. So you can imagine how slow and outclassed Moser's Cooper was against the 400bhp Lotus, Ferrari and Eagle.
Not only that but his car as you said was the elderly Cooper T77..

At say the 1967 British GP there were 4 Coopers running, 2 were works entered cars for Rindt and Rodriguez. Rindt was running the latest T86 with the Maserati Tipo 10/F1 engine. The Tipo 10 was also said to produce 400hp @10,000rpm Rodriguez was only in the earlier T81 chassis and was running the earlier Maserati Tipo9/F1 engine which 'only' produced 360bhp at 9500rpm in its 1967 spec,

In terms of 'privateer' Coopers Bonnier was also in a T81 chassis with a Tipo 9 engine, same as Rodriguez.
Poor Moser not only had the under powered ATS engine but also the outdated1965 model T77 chassis.

Looking at qualy times at the 1967 GP where the four Coopers ran..... Rindt, with the T86 and Tipo 10 Maserati engine predictably was fastest with a 1:27.4 for 8th on the grid ahead of 9th placed Rodriguez (T81 with Tipo 9) on 1:27.9. Bonnier was 19th with a 1:32.0 with Moser 20th on 1:32.9, those two only ahead of Ligier in an equally outdated Brabham BT20 running the original Oldsomobile based '620' Repco which only produced 315bhp @7250rpm in that spec.

It should be pointed out that Moser only ever ran the Cooper ATS for that one race, the only race he ran in 1967! (He 'upgraded' for 1968 by taking over the ex Ligier BT20 with the '620' spec Repco! That ATS 2.7 engine I believe only ever did that one race as well.

Back to the 1967 British GP the two works Brabhams of Brabham and Hulme were BT24's with the 1967 spec '740' Repco engine.... which in 1967 produced a meagre 330bhp at 8000rpm. They nonetheless qualified 3rd and 4th with a 26.2 and 26.3 ,behind Clark and Hill who both had the early DFV's. (Clark did a 1:25.3, 0.7 faster than Hill)

Just add to that for 1968 both the works Brabhams started still with the. same '740' spec Repco, with Jack getting the first of the '840' spec Repco's for Spain. Rindt (in a Brabham for '68) didnt get an '860' spec Repco until Belgium.

My records show even the 860 spec Repco was only producing 380 at 8700rpm. Brabham were the only team to use the 860 spec. (Moser was by now as mentioned about in a less outdated BT20 still with the '§20' spec Repco as Ligier had run the year before..He ran that car and engine until he failed to qualify at the restricted to 22 starters Italian GP. He didnt enter after that until Monaco 1969 by which time he had bought the Charles Voegle Team run by his early benefactor, and now entered in his own name, now with a newer BT24 with DFV power.

Of course for 1968 the DFV was no longer exclusive to Lotus and was available to whoever on a 'show me the money' basis.

Hope that isnt too confusing!

* I started life with nothing, and still have most of it left


“Good drivers have dead flies on the side windows!” (Walter Röhrl)

* I married Miss Right. Just didn't know her first name was Always
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#4

Post by PTRACER »

@Everso Biggyballies Not at all confusing! I love this kind of discussion.

From what I remember, Bonnier's Cooper T81 was a second hand, privately-owned car from the 1966 season. At Spa it was rumoured to only have 330bhp (30bhp down compared to brand new) and it aweighed in the region of 580kg. Moser's Cooper T77 was most likely only 500kg with some ballast to bring it up to the weight limit. That's the only reason I can imagine he was anywhere near Bonnier's time.

Btw I still find it surprising that the Brabhams could compete so easily with cars that had 25% more horsepower. I can only imagine it's because they were nimble, had power throughout the rev range and were pretty low drag. Literally every other works team on the grid had more powerful engines, and not by a small margin.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
User avatar
Everso Biggyballies
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 48988
Joined: 18 years ago
Real Name: Chris
Favourite Motorsport: Anything that goes left and right.
Favourite Racing Car: Too Many to mention
Favourite Driver: Kimi,Niki,Jim(none called Michael)
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife, Spa, Mt Panorama.
Car(s) Currently Owned: Audi SQ5 3.0L V6 TwinTurbo
Location: Just moved 3 klms further away so now 11 klms from Albert Park, Melbourne.

#5

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

PTRACER wrote: 3 months ago @Everso Biggyballies Not at all confusing! I love this kind of discussion.

From what I remember, Bonnier's Cooper T81 was a second hand, privately-owned car from the 1966 season. At Spa it was rumoured to only have 330bhp (30bhp down compared to brand new) and it aweighed in the region of 580kg. Moser's Cooper T77 was most likely only 500kg with some ballast to bring it up to the weight limit. That's the only reason I can imagine he was anywhere near Bonnier's time.

Btw I still find it surprising that the Brabhams could compete so easily with cars that had 25% more horsepower. I can only imagine it's because they were nimble, had power throughout the rev range and were pretty low drag. Literally every other works team on the grid had more powerful engines, and not by a small margin.
Just to clarify (according to 'oldracingcars.com) with Bonnier's T81, ( Cooper T81 [F1-5-66] Tipo 9 V12) it was delivered new to Bonnier / Anglo-Suisse Racing Team) in time for the International Trophy Silverstone - 14 May 1966. Bonnier kept and used that car right through to the 1968 (Jan 1st) South African GP after which he sold it to an André Wicky who used it in non championship events in France and Europe. Bonnier then used a McLaren M5A BRM which he used up until Mexico which he entered in a Honda R301. The Tipo 9 Maserati engine only ever had 330hp according to my records.

Cooper T81 car by car histories here https://www.oldracingcars.com/cooper/t81/

However from mid 1967 Rindt had a T81B which had the 380bhp Tipo 10 (380bhp) engine. That was a couple of races later upgraded to a T86 with the Tipo 10.

Certainly there was a couple of races when The Tipo 10 was used in an 81 by the works cars. It gets a bit tricky to follow who in the worrks cars was using what, as it seems Rindt in particular might have fluctuated between cars at the same meeting, having the 81B and 86 available.

Bottom line is the Tipo 9 was 50bhp down on the Tipo 10 used by the works cars. Maybe that explains the relative loss of power Bonnier complained, maybe compounded by the engine being tired and not freshened up..

* I started life with nothing, and still have most of it left


“Good drivers have dead flies on the side windows!” (Walter Röhrl)

* I married Miss Right. Just didn't know her first name was Always
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#6

Post by PTRACER »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 months ago
PTRACER wrote: 3 months ago @Everso Biggyballies Not at all confusing! I love this kind of discussion.

From what I remember, Bonnier's Cooper T81 was a second hand, privately-owned car from the 1966 season. At Spa it was rumoured to only have 330bhp (30bhp down compared to brand new) and it aweighed in the region of 580kg. Moser's Cooper T77 was most likely only 500kg with some ballast to bring it up to the weight limit. That's the only reason I can imagine he was anywhere near Bonnier's time.

Btw I still find it surprising that the Brabhams could compete so easily with cars that had 25% more horsepower. I can only imagine it's because they were nimble, had power throughout the rev range and were pretty low drag. Literally every other works team on the grid had more powerful engines, and not by a small margin.
Just to clarify (according to 'oldracingcars.com) with Bonnier's T81, ( Cooper T81 [F1-5-66] Tipo 9 V12) it was delivered new to Bonnier / Anglo-Suisse Racing Team) in time for the International Trophy Silverstone - 14 May 1966. Bonnier kept and used that car right through to the 1968 (Jan 1st) South African GP after which he sold it to an André Wicky who used it in non championship events in France and Europe. Bonnier then used a McLaren M5A BRM which he used up until Mexico which he entered in a Honda R301. The Tipo 9 Maserati engine only ever had 330hp according to my records.

Cooper T81 car by car histories here https://www.oldracingcars.com/cooper/t81/

However from mid 1967 Rindt had a T81B which had the 380bhp Tipo 10 (380bhp) engine. That was a couple of races later upgraded to a T86 with the Tipo 10.

Certainly there was a couple of races when The Tipo 10 was used in an 81 by the works cars. It gets a bit tricky to follow who in the worrks cars was using what, as it seems Rindt in particular might have fluctuated between cars at the same meeting, having the 81B and 86 available.

Bottom line is the Tipo 9 was 50bhp down on the Tipo 10 used by the works cars. Maybe that explains the relative loss of power Bonnier complained, maybe compounded by the engine being tired and not freshened up..
Ah, for some reason I thought he bought it used. Maybe I'm mixed up with Ligier.

Anyway, Maserati claimed the Tipo 9 to have 360bhp, but was never seen to reach it. Interesting post here on the topic from Mike Argetsinger (RIP):
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2459 ... /?p=467355
The V-12 from 1957 was resurrected and Ing. Giulio Alfieri updated it to 3-Litres. He broadened the torque curve with different ports and revised cam profiles. The engine revved to 10,000 RPM. Maserati claimed 360 BHP (and more) on their dyno but none of the drivers (or the Cooper mechanics) ever believed it. At one time the best engine was run on the Climax dyno and only 330 BHP was seen. However, the engines were constantly being developed and Maserati really put their heart and soul in to it. I once (between the Dutch and German GP's) accompanied team mechanic Ernie Symonds when we took four engines (three works and one for Rob Walker) to Modena in a small Team Cooper van. I spent the whole week in Modena mostly hanging out at the Maserati factory and I saw the engines on the dyno, etc.
So 330bhp was probably about right. The Tipo 10 engine proved so unreliable Cooper dropped it and returned to the Tipo 9.

Besides the bad engine, the Cooper T86 had horrible front-end lift when it was first produced. The same issue plagued the T77, which had a very 'raised' nose design and suffered from terminal high-speed understeer:

Image

The Cooper T81 didn't have such a problem, but the flat bottom adopted from this model onwards caused a downforce effect at the back end, shifted the weight off the front wheels also raised the nose. Pretty much every image you see of a Cooper T81 shows the nose pointing skyward. Pretty dire years for Cooper with designers who clearly didn't know anything about aerodynamics.

Image
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
User avatar
Michael Ferner
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 3526
Joined: 7 years ago
Real Name: Michael Ferner
Favourite Racing Car: Miller '122', McLaren M23
Favourite Driver: Billy Winn, Bruce McLaren
Car(s) Currently Owned: None
Location: Bitburg, Germany

#7

Post by Michael Ferner »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 months ago
It should be pointed out that Moser only ever ran the Cooper ATS for that one race, the only race he ran in 1967!


Moser (and others) raced the car regularly in the Swiss racing car championship, which included circuit races in Germany, France and Italy as well as Swiss hill climbs. That was the bread-and-butter job the car was designed and built for, its appearance at the Grand Prix was merely incidental.
2023 'Guess The Pole' Points & Accuracy Champion

If you don't vote now against fascism, you may never have that chance again...


Ceterum censeo interruptiones essent delendam.
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#8

Post by PTRACER »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 months ago
It should be pointed out that Moser only ever ran the Cooper ATS for that one race, the only race he ran in 1967!
Moser (and others) raced the car regularly in the Swiss racing car championship, which included circuit races in Germany, France and Italy as well as Swiss hill climbs. That was the bread-and-butter job the car was designed and built for, its appearance at the Grand Prix was merely incidental.
It wasn't the only F1 weekend it took part in. In 1966, the year before Moser got his hands on it, it was loaned to Jo Bonnier for the French GP. It was so slow he didn't race it. The car he DID race (Brabham BT22) qualified last, nearly 16 seconds off pole. Can't imagine how much slower the Cooper ATS must have been to make such.a swap.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
Post Reply