Who is the greatest American driver?

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#31

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Bottom post of the previous page:

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 3 years ago
What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
Not to shabby with plenty of 1st places in everything up to Can-Am.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver ... l-USA.html
Again, don't get me wrong, I had/have great respect for Phil, but of the major series he was in, he only won one Can Am race, 3 FIA WSCC races, and the three F1 races. Besides Dan, Mario, Mark, and A.J., I can't think of any U.S. driver I'd call a "great". A bunch of very good ones, for sure, but no other greats to me. ;)
Yeah Im not suggesting he was up their with the best, just more pointing out that he did plenty of stuff in the US and performed pretty well. But no he aint no Dan or Mario who are to me the best two of those mentioned.

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#32

Post by jimclark »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 3 years ago
What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
Not to shabby with plenty of 1st places in everything up to Can-Am.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver ... l-USA.html
Again, don't get me wrong, I had/have great respect for Phil, but of the major series he was in, he only won one Can Am race, 3 FIA WSCC races, and the three F1 races. Besides Dan, Mario, Mark, and A.J., I can't think of any U.S. driver I'd call a "great". A bunch of very good ones, for sure, but no other greats to me. ;)
Yeah Im not suggesting he was up their with the best, just more pointing out that he did plenty of stuff in the US and performed pretty well. But no he aint no Dan or Mario who are to me the best two of those mentioned.
Alas, you did..... Maybe I've missed it, but what are those "plenty of 1st places' you speak of? In what venues am I missing?

One more time, I respect him as a good driver and more importantly, a class act, but.....he didn't get around and win that much...... ;)
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#33

Post by erwin greven »

At least he won Le Mans three times and a WDC. Not that bad. :bye:
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#34

Post by Ruslan »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Again, don't get me wrong, I had/have great respect for Phil, but of the major series he was in, he only won one Can Am race, 3 FIA WSCC races, and the three F1 races. Besides Dan, Mario, Mark, and A.J., I can't think of any U.S. driver I'd call a "great". A bunch of very good ones, for sure, but no other greats to me. ;)
I am guessing by Mark, you mean Mark Donahue.

What about Parnelli Jones, Bobby Unser and Rick Mears?
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#35

Post by jimclark »

erwin greven wrote: 3 years agoAt least he won Le Mans three times and a WDC. Not that bad. :bye:
'Gotta give you that.....'don't know how I forgot 3 at 'Mans. :blush:
Sebring too ('cept one, '58, he didn't actually score as he wasn't listed on the entry for the car; his car broke earlier).
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoI am guessing by Mark, you mean Mark Donahue. What about Parnelli Jones, Bobby Unser and Rick Mears?
DonOhue, si.
Parnelli? I guess, but just that bit of doubt about being one of the REAL greats indicates I just can't put him way up. Bobby? Naahh. Mears? Very good, of course, but with most of his fame being only with arguably the best of teams, Penske.....(the rest off road....).....
There are many that are way up there, some that many never heard of..... 2 Hs....Al Holbert and Hurley Haywood to name a couple. EFR (Elliott Forbes Robinson), Peter Gregg, on and on and on. Indeed, mucho respect for many.

Just my opinion, of course.

Edit: Ughhh. How, again, could I possibly forgit one of me all time favorites "The Flyin' Hawaiin" (his drag racing days) and/or "On The Gas"...... Danny Ongais. He acquired not much fame, but I know personally how good he was. :) https://www.f1forgottendrivers.com/driv ... ny-ongais/
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#36

Post by Ruslan »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
erwin greven wrote: 3 years agoAt least he won Le Mans three times and a WDC. Not that bad. :bye:
'Gotta give you that.....'don't know how I forgot 3 at 'Mans. :blush:
Sebring too ('cept one, '58, he didn't actually score as he wasn't listed on the entry for the car; his car broke earlier).
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoI am guessing by Mark, you mean Mark Donahue. What about Parnelli Jones, Bobby Unser and Rick Mears?
DonOhue, si.
Parnelli? I guess, but just that bit of doubt about being one of the REAL greats indicates I just can't put him way up. Bobby? Naahh. Mears? Very good, of course, but with most of his fame being only with arguably the best of teams, Penske.....(the rest off road....).....
There are many that are way up there, some that many never heard of..... 2 Hs....Al Holbert and Hurley Haywood to name a couple. EFR (Elliott Forbes Robinson), Peter Gregg, on and on and on. Indeed, mucho respect for many.

Just my opinion, of course.

Edit: Ughhh. How, again, could I possibly forgit one of me all time favorites "The Flyin' Hawaiin" (his drag racing days) and/or "On The Gas"...... Danny Ongais. He acquired not much fame, but I know personally how good he was. :) https://www.f1forgottendrivers.com/driv ... ny-ongais/
Well, I think if I was putting together a list of greatest American drivers (post-war) it would probably start 1) Andretti, 2) A.J. Foyt and 3) Dan Gurney. Not sure who I would put 4th.

But yea, I agree, we tend to produce a lot of good drivers, but not a lot of great drivers. Why that is...that is a more extended discussion.
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#37

Post by jimclark »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoWell, I think if I was putting together a list of greatest American drivers
Uuuuuuhhhhh.......I thought that IS what we were doing......... " Who is the greatest American driver? " :tongue:

:mrgreen:

(And I also admit my choices are biased by the fact that my choice of drivers is swayed some by my appreciation of those that had technical prowess. Thus my rating of Bobby U. I might have told here before, but watching a 500 around '90, he announced that a car "had blown up", "trailing a plume of smoke". I told my girlfriend at the time that it wasn't blown but maybe a coolant hose or radiator. Right after I said that, another announcer, maybe Posey, corrected Bobby....."No Bobby, that's not smoke, that's steam, and it isn't coming out of the exhaust." My gal asked how we knew, and I advised you could simply see the steam dissipate quickly, unlike "burning" oil. He did do well in Dan's Eagles though, didn't he? ;))
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#38

Post by XcraigX »

Lots of debate. But what rank would you put your drivers in? Can someone suggest who should be 4th after my top three?

So the subject of the thread is who is in the top spot. The majority here are suggesting it should be Andretti.
Is that also subject of debate? Or is that now considered settled?
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#39

Post by Ruslan »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoWell, I think if I was putting together a list of greatest American drivers
Uuuuuuhhhhh.......I thought that IS what we were doing......... " Who is the greatest American driver? " :tongue:

:mrgreen:

(And I also admit my choices are biased by the fact that my choice of drivers is swayed some by my appreciation of those that had technical prowess. Thus my rating of Bobby U. I might have told here before, but watching a 500 around '90, he announced that a car "had blown up", "trailing a plume of smoke". I told my girlfriend at the time that it wasn't blown but maybe a coolant hose or radiator. Right after I said that, another announcer, maybe Posey, corrected Bobby....."No Bobby, that's not smoke, that's steam, and it isn't coming out of the exhaust." My gal asked how we knew, and I advised you could simply see the steam dissipate quickly, unlike "burning" oil. He did do well in Dan's Eagles though, didn't he? ;))
Well, you are probably one of the guys on this board who can help build such a listing.... so who is fourth? After all, I like top-ten lists.
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#40

Post by Ruslan »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago So the subject of the thread is who is in the top spot. The majority here are suggesting it should be Andretti.
Is that also subject of debate? Or is that now considered settled?
I think by default it is settled. There really isn't a strong candidate to put up against him other than A. J. Foyt, and Foyt was not the road racer that "the kid" was (as A. J. used to call him).

Now, on to creating a valid top-ten list.
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#41

Post by jimclark »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoWell, you are probably one of the guys on this board who can help build such a listing.... so who is fourth? After all, I like top-ten lists.
Are you serious or just busting my Bs.....??? :tongue:

Right offhand, and I'm not a NASCAR "driver" fan, per se, but since you asked, and right off the top o' me he-ad.....Alan Kulwicki. 0r how about Jim Hall. ;)

There!!! :)
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#42

Post by Ruslan »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoWell, you are probably one of the guys on this board who can help build such a listing.... so who is fourth? After all, I like top-ten lists.
Are you serious or just busting my Bs.....??? :tongue:

Right offhand, and I'm not a NASCAR "driver" fan, per se, but since you asked, and right off the top o' me he-ad.....Alan Kulwicki. 0r how about Jim Hall. ;)

There!!! :)
I am always serious, you do know American racing. Jim Hall was an amazing figure, but not sure he was one of the ten best American drivers in WWII.

I also am not a NASCAR fan, but I can make a pretty strong argument as to why none of their drivers should be on a top-ten list. Only a few have ever stepped out of the comfort of their world (notably: Dave Pearson and Cale Yarlborough).
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#43

Post by jimclark »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoWell, you are probably one of the guys on this board who can help build such a listing.... so who is fourth? After all, I like top-ten lists.
Are you serious or just busting my Bs.....??? :tongue:

Right offhand, and I'm not a NASCAR "driver" fan, per se, but since you asked, and right off the top o' me he-ad.....Alan Kulwicki. 0r how about Jim Hall. ;)

There!!! :)
I am always serious, you do know American racing. Jim Hall was an amazing figure, but not sure he was one of the ten best American drivers in WWII.

I also am not a NASCAR fan, but I can make a pretty strong argument as to why none of their drivers should be on a top-ten list. Only a few have ever stepped out of the comfort of their world (notably: Dave Pearson and Cale Yarlborough).
You're confusing me. As I said, I stick some of the drivers on top of my list because of their technical knowledge, not just driving skill (although my choices are up there, even Jim. He was good).

Re: the NASCAR drivers not "stepping out of their comfort zone", you need to do some more research. You're mistaken. A whole bunch have. Just Indy alone, but also IMSA, SCCA, and even WSCC (most notably, Le Mans). (BTW, where were you talking about David going. I have an answer but 'curious about yours)
:)
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#44

Post by Ruslan »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago You're confusing me. As I said, I stick some of the drivers on top of my list because of their technical knowledge, not just driving skill (although my choices are up there, even Jim. He was good).
Yes, well, technical knowledge is not really driving, although it does help
Re: the NASCAR drivers not "stepping out of their comfort zone", you need to do some more research. You're mistaken. A whole bunch have. Just Indy alone, but also IMSA, SCCA, and even WSCC (most notably, Le Mans). (BTW, where were you talking about David going. I have an answer but 'curious about yours)
:)
In the last couple of decades there have been some NASCAR drivers showing up particularly at Daytona 24 hours, but to date none of them have won overall. Dan Gurney won the first one in 1962, Phil Hill in 1964, Mark Donahue in 1969, Mario Andretti in 1972, A.J. Foyt in 1983 and 1985, and Al Unser Jr in 1986 and 1987 (who I think was better than he Dad when he was sober). And then there is LeMans, with overall wins by Phil Hill (1958, 1961, 1962), Dan Gurney (1967), A. J. Foyt (1967). I don't see any NASCAR guys at the top and no Americans at the top since 1996. And then there is Indy in 1972, where Cale Yarlborough finished 10th (Mark Donohue won) but I think that was the last time any NASCAR driver ran Indy (ignoring returnees like Montoya). There might be a NASCAR driver somewhere on the Indy grid since 1972, but I don't recall any right now.
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#45

Post by jimclark »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago As I said, I stick some of the drivers on top of my list because of their technical knowledge, not just driving skill (although my choices are up there, even Jim.
A) Yes, well, technical knowledge is not really driving, although it does help
Re: the NASCAR drivers not "stepping out of their comfort zone", you need to do some more research. You're mistaken. A whole bunch have. Just Indy alone, but also IMSA, SCCA, and even WSCC (most notably, Le Mans). (BTW, where were you talking about David going. I have an answer but 'curious about yours)
:)
B) In the last couple of decades there have been some NASCAR drivers showing up particularly at Daytona 24 hours, but to date none of them have won overall. Dan Gurney won the first one in 1962, Phil Hill in 1964, Mark Donahue in 1969, Mario Andretti in 1972, A.J. Foyt in 1983 and 1985, and Al Unser Jr in 1986 and 1987 (who I think was better than he Dad when he was sober). And then there is LeMans, with overall wins by Phil Hill (1958, 1961, 1962), Dan Gurney (1967), A. J. Foyt (1967). I don't see any NASCAR guys at the top and no Americans at the top since 1996. And then there is Indy in 1972, where Cale Yarlborough finished 10th (Mark Donohue won) but I think that was the last time any NASCAR driver ran Indy (ignoring returnees like Montoya). There might be a NASCAR driver somewhere on the Indy grid since 1972, but I don't recall any right now.
A) That's what I was inferring in the sentence you quoted. ;)

B) You keep moving the goal posts on me. :huh: I was not referring to the last two decades or winners.
I was referring to your "Only a few have ever stepped out of the comfort of their world (notably: Dave Pearson and Cale Yarlborough)." which I thought meant any/ever....which would include a small sheet load.....
Along with your two, there's (I remember offhand, there's more).....Dick Brooks, Bobby and Donnie Allison, Lee Roy Yarbrough, Mark Martin (3rd overall and 1st in GTO with 70 year old PLN et al,1995 Rolex 24), Herschel McGriff..... :)

Anywho, even with your latest target (last 2 decades) let me remind you that Tony Stewart and Kurt Busch did Indy (both finished 6th iirc to boot) within the last two decades (2001 and 2014, respectively) along with IMSA. Both Earnhardts finished 4th in the Rolex 24 in '01; Kyle Petty was in that one too..
How about Jimmy Johnson (Psssssttt....this year's Rolex and Sebring for Pete's sake... :shocked: )? Ever heard of Jeff Gordon? They've dabbled outside "their" box, too. :)

Want to change the parameters again? I'm up for it. :tongue: :mrgreen:
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#46

Post by MonteCristo »

Can Scott Speed be counted for his esport prowess? No? No?

Carry on.
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