When did F1 first reach 300kph?

[Cheeveer]

Quite an easy question I think, but without an obvious answer:

when did F1 cars first reach 300kph? At a Grand Prix meeting during competition.

If we speak racing overall, I would guess, at the latest, Avus in 1937. But when in actual F1? 1966 at Spa? On the Monza banking in the 50's? At Silverstone in the very first World Championship Grand Prix?

See, no obvious answer, and probably not very well documented either.

[bartez1000]

There was no F1 before 1947. I am not very proficient in F1 history before the World Championship, but if we take into account only the F1 Grand Prix in World Championship, then I'd say Belgian GP 1950. And If not, then possibly during the next race, the French Grand Prix, in the downhill straight of Reims circuit. Alfa 158 should do about 350hp in late 1950, and while slipstreaming in downhill straight these should reach 300 kmh. Silverstone was a fast circuit, but without long straights. According to https://www.pressreader.com/uk/f1-racin ... 6780837361 the Alfetta was clocked at 192 mph in the Pescara's flying kilometer.

[PTRACER]

See, no obvious answer, and probably not very well documented either.

No, since race cars don't have speedometers the only way to calculate top speeds from cars in the 1950s/1960s is:

1. With a radar gun
2. Average speed over a known distance (e.g. as @bartez1000 said about the Flying Kilo/Mile)
3. Calculate from a formula using RPM, gear ratio and tyre diameter. Hard to measure this way since the tyres expand at speeds.

Anyway, I would guess bartez was right about the Alfetta. 'F1' cars only got slower after that. I believe the first cars to beat them in top speed were the 1967 cars. The Mercedes W196 in 1954/5 were only capable of about 170-180mph (I haven't seen any evidence to support them being faster than that). And believe it or not, the Cooper T53 in 1960 was about 6mph faster than the Brabham BT19 of 1966 with the 3 litre engine, but still under 300kph.

[Everso Biggyballies]

I know the question is specific to F1 cars but certainly some of the pre WW2 Grand Prix cars were very quick and were up there or thereabouts. The W125 Mercedes for instance reached race speeds of over 300 km/h (190 mph) in 1937, especially on the AVUS in Berlin, when they ran equipped with a streamlined body.

In speed record attempts there were even faster speeds recorded.

I have read somewhere that not until the 1980's did F1 cars surpass the top speeds of the pre war Grand Prix cars.

As I said I know the question was about F1 cars specifically but in a "Just saying..." moment though it right to throw in the pre F1 Grand Prix cars for the record.

[Cheeveer]

There was no F1 before 1947. I am not very proficient in F1 history before the World Championship, but if we take into account only the F1 Grand Prix in World Championship, then I'd say Belgian GP 1950. And If not, then possibly during the next race, the French Grand Prix, in the downhill straight of Reims circuit. Alfa 158 should do about 350hp in late 1950, and while slipstreaming in downhill straight these should reach 300 kmh. Silverstone was a fast circuit, but without long straights. According to https://www.pressreader.com/uk/f1-racin ... 6780837361 the Alfetta was clocked at 192 mph in the Pescara's flying kilometer.

But there was Grand Prix racing, and it's philosophically the same. In any case, you're right that the Alfa's should have been able to reach over 300kph on those tracks back in the first two years of the World Championship. After that quite a long black hole.

Anyway, I would guess bartez was right about the Alfetta. 'F1' cars only got slower after that. I believe the first cars to beat them in top speed were the 1967 cars. The Mercedes W196 in 1954/5 were only capable of about 170-180mph (I haven't seen any evidence to support them being faster than that). And believe it or not, the Cooper T53 in 1960 was about 6mph faster than the Brabham BT19 of 1966 with the 3 litre engine, but still under 300kph.

The 1966 Brabham was famously underpowered, but what about the Ferrari at Spa? The race was a wash-out, but Surtees did go 7 seconds under the lap record in qualifying, averaging 232kph.

I have read somewhere that not until the 1980's did F1 cars surpass the top speeds of the pre war Grand Prix cars.

At least consistently!

[PTRACER]

In speed record attempts there were even faster speeds recorded.

I believe Nuvolari was the first to break the 300kph mark over a flying mile or something. He drove the twin engined Alfa Romeo Bimatore on the coastal road from Florence to Livorno with special streamlined bodywork and hit 364kph top speed and averaging 321kph. Can you imagine that!?

[PTRACER]

Anyway, I would guess bartez was right about the Alfetta. 'F1' cars only got slower after that. I believe the first cars to beat them in top speed were the 1967 cars. The Mercedes W196 in 1954/5 were only capable of about 170-180mph (I haven't seen any evidence to support them being faster than that). And believe it or not, the Cooper T53 in 1960 was about 6mph faster than the Brabham BT19 of 1966 with the 3 litre engine, but still under 300kph.

The 1966 Brabham was famously underpowered, but what about the Ferrari at Spa? The race was a wash-out, but Surtees did go 7 seconds under the lap record in qualifying, averaging 232kph.

At least consistently!

Actually, you are right about Ferrari! Their 1967 car reached 188mph at Spa in '67 using the 1966 engines, but by then they had lightened the chassis a little. Their earliest 3 litre cars were so fat and heavy, I believe they didn't go much more than 180mph.

(We know the BT19's top speed at Spa was 172mph. Apparently, at Reims in 1966, Brabham was able to gain 8mph in the slipstream of Bandini's Ferrari but this was not enough to get past, so the Fez must have been slightly faster than that in clean air. In the slipstream, the 66 Fez could probably have done over 300kph.)

[EB]

Moss said his perfectly geared Vanwall was hitting 278 kph down the long Pescara straights in 1957. Well, actually he said 173 mph but I did the conversion for you because I'm nice.

[JBT]

Ah, looks like the same question is on you guy's minds as mine was in the 'Drivers you admire' thread!

Somewhere i've got a file I put together a long time ago of the highest recorded F1 top speed I could find for years between 1950 and 2010ish, I'll try and find it and post it.

[PTRACER]

Moss said his perfectly geared Vanwall was hitting 278 kph down the long Pescara straights in 1957. Well, actually he said 173 mph but I did the conversion for you because I'm nice.

Thank you so much, we are glad you can be here for this.

[Cheeveer]

Anyway, I would guess bartez was right about the Alfetta. 'F1' cars only got slower after that. I believe the first cars to beat them in top speed were the 1967 cars. The Mercedes W196 in 1954/5 were only capable of about 170-180mph (I haven't seen any evidence to support them being faster than that). And believe it or not, the Cooper T53 in 1960 was about 6mph faster than the Brabham BT19 of 1966 with the 3 litre engine, but still under 300kph.

The 1966 Brabham was famously underpowered, but what about the Ferrari at Spa? The race was a wash-out, but Surtees did go 7 seconds under the lap record in qualifying, averaging 232kph.

At least consistently!

Actually, you are right about Ferrari! Their 1967 car reached 188mph at Spa in '67 using the 1966 engines, but by then they had lightened the chassis a little. Their earliest 3 litre cars were so fat and heavy, I believe they didn't go much more than 180mph.

(We know the BT19's top speed at Spa was 172mph. Apparently, at Reims in 1966, Brabham was able to gain 8mph in the slipstream of Bandini's Ferrari but this was not enough to get past, so the Fez must have been slightly faster than that in clean air. In the slipstream, the 66 Fez could probably have done over 300kph.)

That makes sense! We are you getting this data from?

How fast could the last 2,5 litre cars go?

[PTRACER]

That makes sense! We are you getting this data from?

How fast could the last 2,5 litre cars go?

I have been doing a LOT of research for GPL modding, so the data comes from various places, such as grandprixengines.co.uk, Autosport forum and old magazines.

Here's one that might answer your question?

In 1964, Autocar reported Gurney "had been clocked in practice at 158 mph" along the Masta straight at Spa.

In 1965 Jenks, reporting on Hill's pole lap of 3:45.4 at Spa quotes a maximum of 162-165 mph.

In 1965, Bill Gavin reporting in AutoSport quotes Clarks maximum speed at Enna as 153.5 mph

In 1966, Surtees writes that he was geared for 176 mph at Spa.

In 1966, Brabham reports he reached 172 mph at Reims

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/6599 ... e-mid-60s/

[Cheeveer]

I figured!

So likely, F1 cars could reach 300 in 1950-1951, but then it took at least 15 years until they could top those speeds again. IIRC it wasn't until the early 60's that 300 was breached at Le Mans either.

First time over 200mph then? That's a taller order. But could that have been 1968 already?

[Everso Biggyballies]

I found a list of all F1 cars that gives their specifications .... all models through the ages. It gives some cars top speeds.... not all but some. Its a laborious process going through the links for each car, but it does show in 1950 the Alfetta being capable of 290kph, the Ferrari 375 capable of 278kph

Here is the link for all cars 1950-1960.... other eras right through to 2020 are linked from this page.

You need to click on an individual car link and the performance figures for that car come under the specifications section. It does give bhp per kg of every car which would give some idea of which would likely be the fastest cars through time if the top speed is not listed.
https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/f1/&fyear=1950

[PTRACER]

I figured!

So likely, F1 cars could reach 300 in 1950-1951, but then it took at least 15 years until they could top those speeds again. IIRC it wasn't until the early 60's that 300 was breached at Le Mans either.

First time over 200mph then? That's a taller order. But could that have been 1968 already?

Funnily enough, nope. Once they acquired wings and bigger wheels, they got slower again because of the increased drag. I would guess it was late-70s into early-80s before 200mph was topped. The 1974 Ferrari could only do 192mph for example.

Great questions, interesting thread.