1987 Australian GP (Yannick Dalmas)

[Picci]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Aust ... Grand_Prix

Some background - I was reading up on Yannick Dalmas and curiously I saw that he came 5th in Adelaide and didn't score any points. According to Wikipedia this was because Larousse only registered one car (and it wasn't his). I found this really odd. How was he classified to begin with? Why didn't they his two points to Moreno instead? Did this sort of thing ever happen apart from this occasion? Any insight would be helpful!

[Michael Ferner]

I think he cannot have finished that race because he got no points. People pay way too much attention to the real world there.

[EB]

Did this sort of thing ever happen apart from this occasion?

Do you mean for the specific same reason, or the more general occurence of a driver officially being classified in a point scoring position but not getting any points?

The answers are respectively "not that I know of" and "yes, loads of times".

[Vassago]

This happened more often in WRC tbh. After Marcus Gronholm was removed from the "nominated" #10 car during the 2000 season (when he became World Champion after all) for speciallist Gilles Panizzi during the tarmac rounds they finally allowed to have three cars eligible for constructors points in 2001.

This was a designed method by WRC which meant you had to choose the eligible entries before each season, not just rely on the best results in the rally after it had finished.

[Picci]

Thank you @Vassago . Yes. @EB I was referring specifically to this sort of event where there does not appear to be any reason (other than this technicality) for the driver not to score any points.

[MonteCristo]

Wasn't there a rule in the past where the *driver* was eligible for points in extra cars, but not for *team* points?

[Picci]

Wasn't there a rule in the past where the *driver* was eligible for points in extra cars, but not for *team* points?

I believe Villeneuve was one of these in the McLaren? But if he finished any of those races surely he'd get the points for himself?

[Everso Biggyballies]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Aust ... Grand_Prix

Some background - I was reading up on Yannick Dalmas and curiously I saw that he came 5th in Adelaide and didn't score any points. According to Wikipedia this was because Larousse only registered one car (and it wasn't his). I found this really odd. How was he classified to begin with? Why didn't they his two points to Moreno instead? Did this sort of thing ever happen apart from this occasion? Any insight would be helpful!

In the days preceeding compulsory 2 entries per team (1992 I think 2 car teams were made compulsory)it was not uncommon for a single car team. The Larousse Calmels Team (chassis / constructor was Lola not Larousse.... the Larousse constructor classification came later) was in their first year in 1987 and only lodged a single car entry for Alliot,..... yet for the final 3 races of the year they entered a second car for Dalmas. The second car was entered in the knowledge he or any other second car entered could score no points because it had not entered every round of the season.. Alliot scored WDC points for 3 x 6th place finishes in 1987 for which he was credited... (Lola were credited with the constructor points scored)

The Championship was only open to drivers / cars who were entered at the start of the year for every race. (If a driver of a championship nominated car was injured and substituted with an alternate driver, because the car was entered for the season the substitute driver would be eligible for points. Had Dalmas been entered in place of Alliot in the other car he would have scored points. For the following year they entered two cars in the championship and both drivers were eligible for points.

Of course the single car teams in those days were unlikely to score points anyway as they were usually underfunded and uncompetitive.

I think the last team to enter just one car for a race was Coloni in 1991.

In terms of did it happen at other times, yes, many times. For various reasons. Often other teams would enter three cars in races.... only two cars would be eligible for points. The last times a three car team entry was made was by Renault Germany 1985.

Moreno did not get awarded the 2 points because he did not come 5th, he came 6th. Dalmas was although not eligible to score points, was still racing for positions and he is recorded as being classified as finishing in 5th. It is not like he was DSQ'd from 5th, just not eligible for 5th place points.

Again Larousse /Lola did not get awarded constructor points either for that 5th place finish in Adelaide for the same reasons Dalmas didn't.

Other times where drivers finished a GP in points paying positions were say in the mid 1960's where for instance at the German GP F2 cars were used to increase the entry numbers (I believe to ensure cars could be seen more regularly on the long circuit where cars only did a few laps compared to normal length circuits. If you look at say the 1967 German GP Jackie Oliver finished in 5th, a points paying positions but actually scored nothing because he was in a F2 car. However the points in that case were awarded to the first 6 F1 cars regardless of their positions.

So that day Guy Ligier scored an F1 point despite only finishing 8th! (Another F2 car, that of Alan Rees had finished ahead of Ligier in 7th.) So that day Bonnier got 2 points for finishing 6th (not the single point usually scored for 6th and Ligier got 1 point for being 8th, scored on the basis of points only being awarded to the first 6 F1 cars Oliver in 5th and Rees in 7th scored no points because they were in F2 cars.

Other quirks in the system arose in the days when not all results counted and drivers often had to drop points accrued (only the best x number of races counted.

Being in his back yard so to speak and his preferred era @Michael Ferner might have comments about the F2 in F1 races scenario, info I am not aware of.

The Constructors championship opens another can of worms, as going back to multiple car team entries only 2 cars would be eligible for WCC points. Up to 1975 only the best placed driver result accrued Constructor points. But that is another story.

I have to say I am unclear when the rulings of only car entered for the season were awarded points came in.... in the early days ie lets take Switzerland 1951,.... there 5 Factory Alfas were entered. 4 of them finished in the top 5 and were all awarded drivers WDC points!

[Vassago]

Yes, the Nurburgring lenght was the main factor why F2 cars were allowed to be entered in the 50 and 60s. They were always ineligible for points though. Jean-Pierre Beltoise scoring 1 point for being classified 12th in the 1969 German GP is the lowest position that ever scored a WC point (Siffert who was classified 11th scored 2).

Outside of Nurburgring the 1958 Moroccan Grand Prix also had F2 cars ineligible for points (including one for Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren's true F1 debut - since it was in F2 car it's not counted into his stats).

Shared drives also were ineligible for points after 1957. Moss & Trintignant scored 0 points for finishing 3rd in the 1960 Argentine Grand Prix. Gregory & Shelby scored 0 points for finishing 4th in 1958 Italian GP.

1961 was the first season when classified runners scored points even if they DNF'd. Between 1950-60 you had to finish the race to be classified (like in modern Supercars for instance). In Monza 1953 Ascari would have been classified 3rd even after crashing in the last corner. Luigi Musso would have been 5th in Monza 1956 but both were listed as DNF due to rules in effect.

[Michael Ferner]

The F2 races were seperate races that took place at the same time that the F1 races took place, so it's not like Ligier scored a point for finishing 8th, he finished 6th in the F1 race.

As for classified runners scoring points despite not finishing, that has always been the case - e.g. at Silverstone in 1950, Giraud-Cabantous and Rosier scored despite not finishing, they were both flagged with two laps to go. For many years, only competitiors running at the finish of a race were classified and thus eligible to score points, and the change to classifying all cars irrespective of status was a bit messy, as I recall.

As for the "Dalmas situation", that was introduced (like so many things) with the changeover to the F1 World Championship in 1981. Other examples were Gartner and Berger at Monza in 1984 - three Austrians in the top six, but only one (Lauda) scored!

[Vassago]

Yeah, but being flagged isn't technically a DNF. Indianapolis used to flag every runner until mid 60s if they could complete the 200 lap distance within a certain time behind the winner. In 1964 the "flagged" period was shortened to ca. 5 minutes and in 1974 it was limited to modern rules - one time past the line behind the winner.

[EB]

Indianapolis used to flag every runner until mid 60s if they could complete the 200 lap distance within a certain time behind the winner. In 1964 the "flagged" period was shortened to ca. 5 minutes and in 1974 it was limited to modern rules - one time past the line behind the winner.

That's why you sometimes get the uninitiated claiming things like "Jack Brabham finished on the lead lap in 1961" without realising how it worked - he finished about 8 minutes after Foyt!

[Michael Ferner]

... or the case of the Dick Wallen board track book, where the author of the Akron article noted that Billy Arnold pitted for relief when three laps down, and relief driver Gene Haustein "went like the wind to make up those three laps", not realizing that Haustein was still running when the winner had already showered, combed and put on his evening dress!

[Vassago]

Indianapolis used to flag every runner until mid 60s if they could complete the 200 lap distance within a certain time behind the winner. In 1964 the "flagged" period was shortened to ca. 5 minutes and in 1974 it was limited to modern rules - one time past the line behind the winner.

That's why you sometimes get the uninitiated claiming things like "Jack Brabham finished on the lead lap in 1961" without realising how it worked - he finished about 8 minutes after Foyt!

Yes, by looking at the 1950s results you can see the time difference of the last finisher is usually around 11 or 12 minutes back which is give or take 10 laps of racing speed at the time. In 1963 the gap to last finisher is 17 minutes. The "5 minute" rule introduced in 1964 was still judgemental to a degree as 5th placed Boyd finished 7 minutes behind the winner.

1972 was the last 500 where the 5 minutes flagged rule was in use since the 1973 edition was shortened by rain.

Of course there were earlier exceptions because of rain. In 1940 the last 50 laps were run behind SC due to rain and only three cars finished on the lead lap (which cost Ted Horn one lap from a perfect 1,800 laps score between 1936-48).

In 1930 Billy Arnold effectively won by 4 laps (7 minutes under the flagged rule). The last car that completed 200 laps was 52 minutes back and there were still four cars that were flagged behind!

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Also Cliff Allison, finished 10th in the 1958 German GP, 5th of the F1 runners but no points for finishing behind F2 Runners.