GPL 1967 v3 Dev blog

Discussion and releases for the 1998 racing simulation by Sierra/Papyrus
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#61

Post by andygpl »

Bottom post of the previous page:

PTRACER wrote: 1 year ago The best we can do is straight lines though. So, let's say when the brakes are at 0C, braking ability is 80%. At 250C, it's 90% and at 500C, 100%. Something like that. The current brake fade code is really strange and has some weird calculations that I need to work out the purpose of first, that is what I will need your help with in the initial stages.
I wonder what will be the effect of such mod for offline driving with the AI as we are probably not able to simulate such behaviour of the brakes for AI drivers. It might give the human driver a hard time for the first few laps. But I guess similar thing is already happening with tyre heating so maybe it will not be such a big deal.
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#62

Post by PTRACER »

andygpl wrote: 1 year ago
PTRACER wrote: 1 year ago The best we can do is straight lines though. So, let's say when the brakes are at 0C, braking ability is 80%. At 250C, it's 90% and at 500C, 100%. Something like that. The current brake fade code is really strange and has some weird calculations that I need to work out the purpose of first, that is what I will need your help with in the initial stages.
I wonder what will be the effect of such mod for offline driving with the AI as we are probably not able to simulate such behaviour of the brakes for AI drivers. It might give the human driver a hard time for the first few laps. But I guess similar thing is already happening with tyre heating so maybe it will not be such a big deal.
That's a good point Ondrej. Actually the penalty for cold brakes will not be nearly as high as hot brakes in the 55 mod. I don't think it will affect racing against the AI much. I suppose the idea is that you could still lock up on the first lap with cold brakes and cold tyres, but you will need to push it pretty hard on the pedal. As the brakes reach peak temp, you'll not have to push so hard to get the same braking power.
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#63

Post by PTRACER »

We are now in the process of writing the above patch (brake temp performance curve). The fundamental code has been designed by Michkov and I am currently working to convert it to an XML patch. I reckon a few hours of work and it'll be done!
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#64

Post by PTRACER »

So far, I've been unable to adapt slip curve data from rF2 into GPL's engine. The two engines are too dissimilar and don't work in the same way.

So I've abandoned the idea and moved over to slip curves generated entirely by the Pacejka Magic Formula instead. With this decision, I feel I have made a really positive step forward in terms of tyre feel and the GPL engine is comfortable with the changes, since the game was basically designed around Pacejka-style curves in the first place. I'm also adapting the peak slip angles/loads from the Assetto Corsa Lotus 49 into the game as well rather than those used in rF2 and this is having a positive impact.

The process is quite delicate though, changes in this area can make GPL cars behave very strangely and this is a problem found in almost all mods. If it wasn't for this, the physics would be finished already.
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#65

Post by LasseA »

How far are you with the tyre model now, is there still much balancing to be done or is your focus on other areas and details already/at the moment?

And I wonder, is 49% brake bias still effective in this mod? Low bias + throttle under braking is effective in all of GPL (except for the 55s because of the brake fade). In AC it works pretty well, but normal bias is just as easy to drive in that sim. What's it like with the 67XV3?
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#66

Post by PTRACER »

LasseA wrote: 1 year ago How far are you with the tyre model now, is there still much balancing to be done or is your focus on other areas and details already/at the moment?

And I wonder, is 49% brake bias still effective in this mod? Low bias + throttle under braking is effective in all of GPL (except for the 55s because of the brake fade). In AC it works pretty well, but normal bias is just as easy to drive in that sim. What's it like with the 67XV3?
Sorry I did not see this post before.

I would say I am at v0.99 with the tyre model now. Having switched back to the original GPL and GPL '69 for a little this weekend, I realised how much more natural the 67v3 physics feel to drive (at least to me) and improving much further is beyond the ability of GPL's engine. The pain points lately have been what happens when you go OVER the limit, especially under braking where I have had problems with the tyres not locking up enough and the braking distances being way too short, but lately I seem to have overcome that somewhat. So, I am now just tweaking those final little bits to ensure the lap times and cornering speeds roughly match and trying to get the brakes/brake fade parameters and each car's inertia settings correct. (No more controlling the pitch of the car while jumping over the Flugplatz by hitting the brakes or throttle, for example.)

About brake bias, to answer your question - nope, you can't use 49% brake bias anymore. About 54% to 56% seems about as low as you can go. This is because the 5% split between front and rear tyre grip in the original GPL has now been reduced to 1.3% in 67v3. The new diff code also contributes to that. But unfortunately you can still use the throttle and brake at the same time if you want to and there's no way to avoid it at the moment.
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#67

Post by PTRACER »

I put in about 28 hours of work into this over the last two days. I'm really spent, but I made some significant progress in some areas I was really interested in.

1. Body Lift - Unlike V1 and V2, the 67v3 cars will be modelled with aero lift. Some mods come with it, but the way it is implemented from mod to mod is very inconsistent. Before deciding on what direction to go, I really wanted to understand how the code worked. I have been playing around with it for months, but without really being able to settle on the right settings. It took me 15 hours yesterday and another four this morning to finally work out roughly what's going on. I've had at least four or five goes at this in the past and came out empty-handed so this is a major milestone for me. Anyhow, this has given me an extra tool in my toolbox as I can now re-write the code with confidence rather than by trial and error.

2. Camber - One of my issues with GPL is that it sometimes feels like the tyres are too 'narrow', or like the car is on stilts. This is largely related to the way GPL calculates the loss of grip with increase in camber. I found the code that handles this but it turned out to be considerably more complicated than I expected. I want to reduce the camber effect slightly for V3 to see if I could get a better feel, I feel this is a key area for improving the tyre model which other mods have so far not touched.

3. Tyre smoke/skid mark generation - Call this nitpicking, but I sometimes feel there's too much smoke/skidmarks generated during cornering or when locking up, so I plan to reduce the effect somewhat in V3. You will need to skid a lot harder to get the skidmarks to show. I've also found a way of making the smoke linger for a little longer. Doing donuts and then watching as the smoke spreads across the whole track Days Of Thunder style is a pretty cool effect :mrgreen: I don't think GPL needs that exactly but I already found a setting I am happy with so you'll see it in the mod.

Well, since I am doing a lot of talk but not showing you any results, I can announce that I plan to release a tech demo in the near future. I already started work on this. I don't want to promise to release it around Christmas time, but if I can get the Lotus 49 and F2 Matra roughly where I want them to be (including finishing off some graphical fixes I was already working on), then I can put a little something together for you guys to try out. Watch this space.
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#68

Post by Michkov »

That sounds all very exciting. If you need a second pair of eyes to make sense of some piece of code, I'd be happy to take a look.
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#69

Post by LasseA »

PTRACER wrote: 1 year ago
LasseA wrote: 1 year ago How far are you with the tyre model now, is there still much balancing to be done or is your focus on other areas and details already/at the moment?

And I wonder, is 49% brake bias still effective in this mod? Low bias + throttle under braking is effective in all of GPL (except for the 55s because of the brake fade). In AC it works pretty well, but normal bias is just as easy to drive in that sim. What's it like with the 67XV3?
Sorry I did not see this post before.

I would say I am at v0.99 with the tyre model now. Having switched back to the original GPL and GPL '69 for a little this weekend, I realised how much more natural the 67v3 physics feel to drive (at least to me) and improving much further is beyond the ability of GPL's engine. The pain points lately have been what happens when you go OVER the limit, especially under braking where I have had problems with the tyres not locking up enough and the braking distances being way too short, but lately I seem to have overcome that somewhat. So, I am now just tweaking those final little bits to ensure the lap times and cornering speeds roughly match and trying to get the brakes/brake fade parameters and each car's inertia settings correct. (No more controlling the pitch of the car while jumping over the Flugplatz by hitting the brakes or throttle, for example.)

About brake bias, to answer your question - nope, you can't use 49% brake bias anymore. About 54% to 56% seems about as low as you can go. This is because the 5% split between front and rear tyre grip in the original GPL has now been reduced to 1.3% in 67v3. The new diff code also contributes to that. But unfortunately you can still use the throttle and brake at the same time if you want to and there's no way to avoid it at the moment.

Fantastic news! Really shows just how much you care about proper car ohysics and everything that is off with GPL. I always presumed that 49% brake bias solely worked because you matched the rear tyres movement speed to that of the front tyres so that rear tyre locking would be prevented, and thus you could control the rear tyre locking with the throttle and the front tyre locking with the brake pedal as usual, but due to the 5% less bias towards the front you could brake harder without locking the fronts. And thus you can balance the car with the use of both pedals, though I assume that GPL's inertia settings might also affect this behaviour in a possibly unrealistic way?

But looking at where exactly you started describing why 49% bias doesn't work anymore, I see that there is perhaps more to this. But how is this mostly related to the split in grip between grip and fronts and what exactly makes this technique ineffective when you reduce the grip difference?

Sorry for all those complicated, technical questions which presumably take time to answer. I'd love to read up more on car physics myself, but am not sure on where to start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYp2vvUgEqE&t This video gave me a few nice insights, can you recommend any particular reading material in any form, perhaps some that you used yourself to gain more understanding of physics? :)
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#70

Post by PTRACER »

@LasseA Thanks Lasse :) It's true that I care quite strongly about getting everything just right.

About the 49% brake bias, I think what you said is pretty much spot on. I mean, let's say you use 50% brake bias. That means the brakes at the front and the rear have equal braking power - let's say 1000N front / 1000N rear. By adding throttle, I presume you are simply reducing the braking ability of the rear tyres so it's now more like 1000N/850N. The brakes in default GPL are pretty strong, so reducing the front brake bias will make them less sensitive to locking as well.

Another factor is the diff settings, which prevent the rear wheels spinning independently of each other. If you are using say, 30/60/2, then your locking % is 13% under throttle and 8% when off the throttle completely. By adding any amount of throttle you are increasing the locking percentage to 13%. This greatly increases the stability of the car as you enter the corner.

----------------------------

About the front/rear grip differences vs. brake bias. Actually this is a pretty complicated topic, but it is mostly down to what I wrote in the GPL Tyre Physics thread. The more weight on the tyres, the lower the tyre's peak friction coefficieny. A Lotus 49 with a 40/60 weight balance will have roughly 115kg on each front tyre and 180kg on each rear tyre when stationary and there's 5% loss of grip per 100kg.

If the front and rear base friction coeff was the same, e.g. 1.00:
- After calculating the car's static weight, friction coeffs are approximately 0.95F/0.90R
- When you enter a corner, weight is being transferred to the outside tyres so entering the Parabolica, at 1.2G, the left side tyres will now be 0.92F/0.88R.
- Since there is more weight on the rear, the rear of the car will roll more than the front. More roll increases the camber, which also reduces the grip. So, accounting for this, tyre friction might now be 0.90F and 0.85R.

With a 50/50 brake bias, the rears are going to lock easily and you'll have a lot less grip on the rear when cornering in general, so you'll need to move the brake bias forward. This is obviously ignoring longitudinal weight transfer, slip angle, temperature, pressure etc. It also ignores the various inertial factors which we were talking about earlier, because although I haven't done any testing on it, I am pretty sure these also increase how much weight is transferred around the car.

Default GPL uses more like 1.00F and 1.05R for the base tyre grip. So, in the above situation:
- Static grip will be 0.95F/0.945R
- Cornering at 1.2G (excluding camber change from body roll) - 0.92F/0.925R
- Now including body roll: 0.9F/0.895R

Hence you can get away much lower front brake bias.

----------------------------

I haven't done too much reading on it myself to be honest :blush: A lot of this is from 2 years of playing around with GPL's physics engine, comparing with the physics in Assetto Corsa and my own real world racing experience. I recommend continuing to watch the various videos on YouTube, especially those from Driver61. They are pretty easily digestible.
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#71

Post by Puhis »

You looking for playtesters, perchance? Because I happen to know some people who have excessive GPL and sim racing experience.
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#72

Post by PTRACER »

Puhis wrote: 1 year ago You looking for playtesters, perchance? Because I happen to know some people who have excessive GPL and sim racing experience.
Certainly! I have a small beta testing team but I plan to release a public tech demo in the coming weeks (months?). It would be good if your friends could be made aware of this project and the more testers I have the better.

Current selling points physics wise:
- New Pacejka generated slip curves
- Slip angles and load sensitivities based on rF2's BT20, Eve MS10 and MS7 tyre models
- Camber curves and aero lift mathematically based on the L49 in AC
- Tyre temps based on modern sims
- Truer to real life weight/weight balance/top speeds etc.
- Brake temperature modelling
- Realistic diff locking percentages
- New draft model mathematically based on AC's L49

And I shouldn't say too much publicly but there are several other patches which I have been working on for a while. Release is imminent, previews coming soon.
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#73

Post by LegendsOf67 »

PTRACER wrote: 1 year ago I put in about 28 hours of work into this over the last two days. I'm really spent, but I made some significant progress in some areas I was really interested in.

1. Body Lift - Unlike V1 and V2, the 67v3 cars will be modelled with aero lift. Some mods come with it, but the way it is implemented from mod to mod is very inconsistent. Before deciding on what direction to go, I really wanted to understand how the code worked. I have been playing around with it for months, but without really being able to settle on the right settings. It took me 15 hours yesterday and another four this morning to finally work out roughly what's going on. I've had at least four or five goes at this in the past and came out empty-handed so this is a major milestone for me. Anyhow, this has given me an extra tool in my toolbox as I can now re-write the code with confidence rather than by trial and error.

2. Camber - One of my issues with GPL is that it sometimes feels like the tyres are too 'narrow', or like the car is on stilts. This is largely related to the way GPL calculates the loss of grip with increase in camber. I found the code that handles this but it turned out to be considerably more complicated than I expected. I want to reduce the camber effect slightly for V3 to see if I could get a better feel, I feel this is a key area for improving the tyre model which other mods have so far not touched.

3. Tyre smoke/skid mark generation - Call this nitpicking, but I sometimes feel there's too much smoke/skidmarks generated during cornering or when locking up, so I plan to reduce the effect somewhat in V3. You will need to skid a lot harder to get the skidmarks to show. I've also found a way of making the smoke linger for a little longer. Doing donuts and then watching as the smoke spreads across the whole track Days Of Thunder style is a pretty cool effect :mrgreen: I don't think GPL needs that exactly but I already found a setting I am happy with so you'll see it in the mod.

Well, since I am doing a lot of talk but not showing you any results, I can announce that I plan to release a tech demo in the near future. I already started work on this. I don't want to promise to release it around Christmas time, but if I can get the Lotus 49 and F2 Matra roughly where I want them to be (including finishing off some graphical fixes I was already working on), then I can put a little something together for you guys to try out. Watch this space.
MIND....BLOWN....

Just stumbled across it by accident. I had no idea! Is this widely publicised within the GPL community? Maybe I've been living under a rock and missed it.

All I can say, is WOW! Incredible work ethic to begin with. More grease to your elbow and massive kudos.
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#74

Post by mcmirande »

Wow Paul! There was some time I didn't enter here and your progress seems to be huge! I'm looking forward for beta testing :)

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#75

Post by psosa »

Hi Paul, I've been following all your progress and I see a very cool project coming out for GPL.

If for some reason you need more people to test the cars on the track, I offer myself for whatever.

Regards

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#76

Post by PTRACER »

@psosa @mcmirande
Pablo, Marcos, thanks for dropping by and thank you for your comments! It really helps motivate me to continue my work on this.

I have a few people onboard, but I'm happy for you to be a part of the test team as well. I'm currently in the process of fine tuning the final aspects of the tyre physics and will be releasing a tech demo sometime soon. If things go as planned, the tech demo will include one or two little surprises.

@LegendsOf67
It's not widely publicised, no. Around a dozen or so GPL'ers know about it. I kindly request that you don't post about it publicly on SRMZ yet, but if you have any friends over there (non-mod team), feel free to PM them and direct them over here.

--------------------
Today's update:- Found a way of changing the tyre stiffness depending on its pressure. In the original GPL, the peak slip angle can change by well over 2 degrees between 20 PSI and 26 PSI and over 3 degrees between 18 and 26 PSI. This is partly because of how much lower the tyre spring rates are at lower pressures. These differences might not sound a lot, but even one degree difference in peak slip angle is noticeable. I had noticed my tyre physics felt weird when the tyres were cold and it seems this was the cause.
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