New Generation Engines thread *Now delayed to 2026*

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Everso Biggyballies
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New Generation Engines thread *Now delayed to 2026*

#1

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Time for a definitive thread about the promised new generation engines to take F1 into the future.

We have had meetings between major manufacturers, even including manufacturers not currently involved in F1.
We still dont know what format these new engines will take. Hybrid, new fuel types, solar powered, fermented ales, cow oo etc.... low cost, sustainable, whatever,.... :dunno:

Discussions surrounding the new generation of power unit have been ongoing for the better part of a year, though little progress has been made. The new engines were scheduled to be running for 2025. Even that date was a delayed date. We are stuck with what we have got now, frozen until whenever they can all agree on every (any) thing. And a dream of being carbon neutral. Dream on

The decision has now been made to delay their introduction..... now until 2026.

If they can decide what they want them to be by then. And if those who think they might like to get in on the act can make their minds up.
Or, like Honda, those that are in might decide they dont want to be in and want to be out. :dunno: .

So what do we know? Not a lot really, but lets give it a go.....
F1 is targeting low cost, sustainable units that are both accessible to newcomers and attractive to fans.

With the engine manufacturers, there have been largely two camps; those looking to build on their own pre-existing experience and others who are potentially looking to step into the fray and are therefore looking for a greenfield option.

According to the report, the compromise could be dropping the MGU-H – the heat recovery aspect of the motor generator unit.

A meeting over new rules was held at the Italian Grand Prix in Monza last weekend.

Suggestions of a standard six-cylinder block have been made, allowing room for development within the cylinder head and combustion chamber, easing the path for new manufacturers looking to get involved.

A cost cap has also been put on the units, reducing them from in the region of $2 million to under $1 million – a figure not possible while maintaining the MGU-H.

There will also be increased electrification with the combustion engine to take a hit when it comes to output.

That’s understood to be partly due to the simplified design, but also a result of using biofuels, theoretically eliminating the need for a fuel flow limit.

Electrical power would increase from 120 kilowatts to 350 with recovery potentially set to use the front axle.

Aside from the technical considerations, there are more practical ones, such as how the cost of development will be covered in an era when teams are now bound to a cost cap, among a host of others.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/09/15/ne ... ntil-2026/

So anything you have thoughts about on the new engines. Given we wont be getting big capacity V-12 gas guzzling children choking polluting nasties that used to be what appealed to most of us. It seems we will have to leave those qualities to the jets and transport of the circus all around the globe.

Discuss away..... what do you want, not want, think, etc.
Anything to do with engines.

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#2

Post by XcraigX »

What does the MGU-H do specifically again?
I understand the MGU-K easily, but how do they harvest heat (the H) energy into electrical power?
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#3

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

XcraigX wrote: 2 years ago What does the MGU-H do specifically again?
I understand the MGU-K easily, but how do they harvest heat (the H) energy into electrical power?
The MGU-K transforms wasted kinetic energy from the decelerating wheels into electrical energy, which can also be stored in the car's energy storage system. They both work together to give the cars power boosts.

The MGU-H is located between the turbine and the compressor, and this excess exhaust gas is sent through it. The MGU-H has a motor in it, which spins when the exhaust gases (excess gasses from the wastegate I think) pass through it, converting the kinetic energy of the hot exhaust gases into electrical energy through the process described above, with the spinning magnets in the motor generating electricity .... again sent and stored to / in the energy storage system

Before I get out of my depth trying to explain it this article covers just about everything from the current power unit including


https://flowracers.com/blog/ers-f1-how- ... gu-k-work/

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#4

Post by White six »

Hope it's like back to the future where you just chuck the contents of your bin in it
The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
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#5

Post by XcraigX »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago
The MGU-H is located between the turbine and the compressor, and this excess exhaust gas is sent through it. The MGU-H has a motor in it, which spins when the exhaust gases (excess gasses from the wastegate I think) pass through it, converting the kinetic energy of the hot exhaust gases into electrical energy through the process described above, with the spinning magnets in the motor generating electricity .... again sent and stored to / in the energy storage system
So the MGU-H is actually an MGU-K with a different name. The exhaust gases spin a turbine and they collect the kinetic energy from the turbine into electricity (just a hint that this is my industry and I could explain for days how these work).
The MGU-H name is misleading. I thought they actually had a way to turn the heat directly into electrical energy which would be groundbreaking. Instead they are using common technology on a very small scale (and taking up precious room in the engine bay).

I don't fully understand why they are claiming this is expensive as most of the technology for it exists widely. But I do understand it has no carry-over use in the car industry (unless we go back to the old experimental tubine cars from the late 50's/early 60's).

In fact it seems to me that the MGU-K would be just as expensive since it is spread over the entire car (both axles and the wiring to the central energy storage unit). However, maybe they are using existing passenger car tech that brings this price down, instead of the (hypothetically) custom components in the MGU-H.
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#6

Post by Michkov »

4TJ for 300km in what form is up to the teams
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#7

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

XcraigX wrote: 2 years ago What does the MGU-H do specifically again?
It seems those involved in the decisions re the engines format dont like the MGU-H either as it seems that is one of the current elements due for a drop kick and out of bounds.... and its proposed absence seems a key move likely to entice other engine partners (ie VW Group) into the F1 party.

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#8

Post by XcraigX »

Erwin posted this in a different thread, but the majority of the video speaks about engine changes for 2026 and why they were delayed.
erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
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#9

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Aston Martin evaluating developing own power unit for 2026

To be honest I am not sure whether AM are seriously looking at doing their own engines for 2026, or whether they are just talking about it in a sort of option manner. Of course with Audi /VAG rumoured to be coming in either as Porsche, Audi or all of the above, Mercedes and Alpine committed, not to mention Red Bull doing their own thing (maybe in league with the VAG thing or on their own under the Red Bull Powertrains badge.... and of course Ferrari. Is another manufacturer feasible or viable. One would think it would require a customer team to not only add to the data to develop, but also to add some income to develop the project.
Potentially that is a minimum of 5 engine manufacturers likely six, and only 10 teams. Of those tem, two are likely to be alrewady catered for.... Haas with Ferrari and Alpha Tauri with Reed Bull.

I cant see it as more than talk and fantasising..... but the following has appeared in F1.com and comes with some input from key figures
Aston Martin are evaluating the viability of creating their own Formula 1 power unit for 2026, when revised engine regulations are set to be introduced.

Billionaire owner Lawrence Stroll is heavily investing in the Silverstone-based operation, with construction already under way on a new fit-for-purpose factory that will house a new wind tunnel and simulator, as he bids to transform the team into world title contenders.

Aston Martin currently run a Mercedes power unit and also take the world champion’s gearbox and rear suspension. But going forward, Technical Director Andrew Green said they are looking into going it alone and creating their own engine.

“I think going forward with our ambitions, we’re definitely investigating our power unit supply in the long-term,” said Green, at the launch of the AMR22. “2026 is mooted as a new power unit regulation and I think, as a team, we’d love to be involved.

“We have Aramco now involved as a sponsor and I think conversations going forward in the next few years… we’ll see. For sure we’ll be looking at it in great detail and understanding whether there is a benefit to it in that direction.”

Should Aston Martin follow that route, they’ll be hot on the heels of Red Bull, who created their own engine division Red Bull Powertrains following their supplier Honda’s decision to leave the sport at the end of last year. While they will continue to run Honda-made engines this season, their own operation is already online and working on the 2026 unit.

Aston Martin begun pre-season running encouragingly, clocking up more than 100 laps on two successive days. But they had a troublesome final day in Barcelona, with Sebastian Vettel stopping on track with an oil leak – which led to a small fire – and they did not return to the track in the afternoon. They ended the session with 296 laps, putting them seventh in the mileage charts.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QyXvZ.html

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#10

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ferrari, Mercedes (and Porsche) yet to commit to F1 2026 power unit rules

Which means they have not submitted their entries as an engine supplier as yet.... despite missing both an original and extended deadline to do so.

In fact only three engine manus have officially entered. Audi were the first and only one when the first deadline passed.... now Red Bull Powertrains and Alpine have signed up..

Entries were set to close on October 15, though that has now been extended in an effort to lure more manufacturers in.

That includes both Mercedes and Ferrari,...... Ferrari reportedly set to submit its power unit entry early next week. The delay there is supposedly they were opposed some of the concessions made for the 2026 power until regulations to entice new manufacturers into the sport. I guess they are now happy.

There are suggestions Honda too could lodge an entry despite currently working with Red Bull Powertrains.

Porsche remains a wildcard. The FIA suggest they are still exploring avenues in which to enter and are 'talking to the paddock' with a view of becoming part of F1. It seems their entry is not guaranteed at this stage.

So we look like getting five engine manus confirmed shortly (Audi Alpine Ferrari Mercedes and RBPT)..... which could become seven should Honda become involved independently of RBPT and with Porsche committing.

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