2021 Gran Premio d'Italia di Vaffanculo

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Everso Biggyballies
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#271

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Bottom post of the previous page:

PTRACER wrote: 2 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago 3 grid spot penalty for Max.... to be served a Sochi in two weeks time.
This grid penalty is really unjustified in my opinion.
I think it is a political type of thing.... Sillystone was judged predominantly Lewis at fault and penalised, this one Max, and so unable to get a 10 second because he DNF'd they gave him the minimum grid penalty. I still think it was a racing incident, but hoefully he can make the 3 place drop immediately.

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#272

Post by White six »

Rather like sending the Leeds player off just because the Liverpool guy's foot fell off
The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
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#273

Post by Circuitmaster »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 2 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago 3 grid spot penalty for Max.... to be served a Sochi in two weeks time.
This grid penalty is really unjustified in my opinion.
I think it is a political type of thing.... Sillystone was judged predominantly Lewis at fault and penalised, this one Max, and so unable to get a 10 second because he DNF'd they gave him the minimum grid penalty. I still think it was a racing incident, but hoefully he can make the 3 place drop immediately.
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#274

Post by DoubleFart »

White six wrote: 2 years ago Rather like sending the Leeds player off just because the Liverpool guy's foot fell off
Yes, as with your point, this is very much a penalty based on the severity of the outcome, not of the incident itself.
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#275

Post by PTRACER »

And there's me still thinking that it is not necessary to penalise every single driver who makes contact with another. It's racing, sometimes they are going to bump into each other.
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#276

Post by Star »

Holy cow what a race! Great result for McLaren and you had to love Lando trying to get the team to make Ricciardo let him through, it wasn't going to happen. You have to love a trier though.

As for THAT incident. I see Max has a penalty and when you read the full decision I can sort of make sense of it, but for me, that was six of one and half a dozen of the other. In that kind of position neither of them is going to back off, we know that now. That means this is going to keep on happening and sometimes one of them will be apportioned more blame, another time it will go the other way.

All I will say is, Hamilton was stupid to try and back out onto the track given the damage we'd all seen on his car and he was so damn lucky that halo was there because without it, he might not be alive today.

Anyone else watch channel 4? Alex Jacques is a good commentator but sheesh that guy gets excited. Twice yesterday, the first lap coming together of Max and Hamilton and then their crash and he went hypersonic. I am honestly waiting for him to give himself some kind of medical emergency he gets so worked up. It's awful to listen to if I'm honest, it actually worries me.

Anyway, that is the view from me on what I saw. Oh and one last thing, I do so hate it when Ricciardo does 'the shoey' is a disgusting thing to do and I really, really wish he wouldn't :sick: :sick:
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#277

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Time to update the Championship positions....

I guess we all know that the gap at the top of the WDC increased by a couple of points thanks to Max taking 2nd in the Sprint race on Saturday and the double DNF of Max and Lewis on Sunday..... some of the gaps lower down have changed. Bottas to Lando remained static thanks to Bottas win on Saturday and his inherited podium on Sunday thanks to Sergio getting a 5 second penalty. Lando stretched the gap to Sergio and the gap from Sergio to Leclerc shrunk Leclerc being promoted to 4th for the same reason. Danny Ric jumped Gasly with a 25 point turnaround thanks to Gasly's DNF.


Driver Points
1. Max VERSTAPPEN 226.50
2. Lewis HAMILTON 221.50
3. Valtteri BOTTAS 141
4. Lando NORRIS 132
5. Sergio PEREZ 118
6. Charles LECLERC 104
7. Carlos SAINZ 97.50
8. Daniel RICCIARDO 83
9. Pierre GASLY 66
10. Fernando ALONSO 50


In the WCC Mercedes stretched the gap to RBR a little and McLaren managed to jump ahead of Ferrari in what has become aseesaw battle, and Alpine opened the gap to Alpha Tauri

Constructor Points
1. Mercedes 362.50
2. Red Bull Honda 344.50
3. McLaren Mercedes 215
4. Ferrari 201.50
5. Alpine Renault 95
6. AlphaTauri Honda 84
7. Aston Martin Mercedes 59
8. Williams Mercedes 22
9. Alfa Romeo Ferrari 3

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#278

Post by White six »

DoubleFart wrote: 2 years ago
White six wrote: 2 years ago Rather like sending the Leeds player off just because the Liverpool guy's foot fell off
Yes, as with your point, this is very much a penalty based on the severity of the outcome, not of the incident itself.
And nine times out of ten silverstone would be more dangerous.

It's not the harshest of penalties tbf
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#279

Post by Ruslan »

PTRACER wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
XcraigX wrote: 2 years ago The evidence is amazingly clear that F1 has a HUGE AERO PROBLEM. The turbulence put out by these cars is way too high to allow good racing. (It almost makes me wonder if some of the teams are now adding additional turbulence to their aero package as a defense mechanism.) They could have solved this years ago, but they let the teams have too much input and allow small constant changes with no consequence.
Yea, I keep suggesting that we just ban wings. So far in all the various forums I have been on, I have had only one person agree with me.

We shall see how the latest Ross Brawn fix works for 2022. It is another tweak or an actual solution?
Are you expecting F1 cars to look like this?

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Yea, except I assume the aerodynamicists will come up with all kind of clever noses and spoilers. It is not like their work ends if you ban wings.
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#280

Post by Ruslan »

Star wrote: 2 years ago Oh and one last thing, I do so hate it when Ricciardo does 'the shoey' is a disgusting thing to do and I really, really wish he wouldn't :sick: :sick:
It is his signature celebration now. Kind of expected. He can't stop doing it.
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#281

Post by erwin greven »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Yea, I keep suggesting that we just ban wings. So far in all the various forums I have been on, I have had only one person agree with me.
There has to be a reason when only one agrees with you.
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#282

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

XcraigX wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
XcraigX wrote: 2 years ago The evidence is amazingly clear that F1 has a HUGE AERO PROBLEM. The turbulence put out by these cars is way too high to allow good racing. (It almost makes me wonder if some of the teams are now adding additional turbulence to their aero package as a defense mechanism.) They could have solved this years ago, but they let the teams have too much input and allow small constant changes with no consequence.
Yea, I keep suggesting that we just ban wings. So far in all the various forums I have been on, I have had only one person agree with me.

We shall see how the latest Ross Brawn fix works for 2022. It is another tweak or an actual solution?
I think banning wings is not needed (evidence: F2 and Indycar). But instead simplifying the wings to a single fixed and a single adjustable element. Perhaps with a Gurney flap on the back. Maybe even return to flat floor venturi devices. Unfortunately, wings are here to stay in open wheel cars. But the number of sophisticated and expensive aero bits need to go away along with the rear diffuser.
.
I agree with you that if they could get rid of most of those add ons and winglets the situation would improve, but why do we take for granted that wings are here to stay?

Let's put things into perspective for a moment: what is the purpose of wings? to make the cars faster. We all accept that since wings make cars faster they have a legitimate place in F1. Pity that we don't use the same standard for most other devices that make cars faster, if we were to accept any device that makes a car faster we would have to accept unrestricted 5000cc turbocharged engines using hyper-performing fuel, we could easily see cars with 3000 bhp. And we would still have full ground effect cars, possibly weighting as little as 350 kilograms. The list could go on for ages, the point that I'm trying to make is that more often that not a new device is introduced in F1, it is fully developed and adopted by everyone, and when it becomes too much it gets seriously curbed or banned altogether. This rule applies to most technical devices, with a notable exception: wings. Wings have been around for ages, there is very little scope for some breakthrough innovation with wings, they have had their day and now they have become a liability yet we cannot foresee an F1 without wings. Why is that the case? Are wings good for the racing? no they're not. Are they an area for research that could be useful in our road cars? of course not, no one is even dreaming of this. The only positive of wings that I can think of is that they increase the amount of each car that can be sold to sponsors, and given how current wings are made I'm not even sure that they represent a significant source of income for the teams.

So why are we still seeing cars with wings if we all know that wings is a fully developed technology that cannot be replicated in road cars and not only doesn't improve the show but rather it is probably the single biggest problem that prevents good old fashioned closed racing?

I'd love to know what you guy think of this, I am really struggling to find an answer to that question. The only answer that I can come up with is that wings are great for geeks, wings have become the triumph of engineers over racers, they are the proof that the balance of power inside F1 has shifted from racers to engineers and sadly IMHO engineers have lost sight of the main goal of F1, racing.

You could argue that engineers could come up with very powerful engines, for example, that is true but there's a difference: everyone can understand how an engine works and so everyone can come up with solutions to limit the power of an engine, the same isn't true of wings, wings are not so simple to understand in detail so not everyone can curb their dominance, in effect only an engineer can come up with solutions to limit the effect of wings.

IMHO wings in 2021 are 100% pointless, they don't improve the racing (rather they are the main reason why we don't have good racing), they are not cost effective, they can't be used on road cars and their technology has limited development potential, in a sense they are a waste of time. For that reason I would be 100% in favour of a total ban on wings, I think that this would open many exciting areas for research.

As for junior formulae, they have wings for one reason only: to teach young drivers how to use them in the hope that one day one of them will turn into a GP driver, no other reason whatsoever. I have already talked about my (personal) experience in the junior formulae with ever more complex wings, if junior formulae weren't meant to be a stepping stone to greater things for a lucky few they wouldn't need to train young drivers and wouldn't have wings. Let's try to see this from a different angle: why F. Ford cars don't have super complex wings? you could argue that this is because costs must be kept low but that is not the point, the point is that very few drivers at that stage in their career would know what to do with super complex wings. The point that I'm trying to make is that junior formulae are an ever simplified version of a GP car, ban wings on F1 cars and wings would disappear immediately on junior formulae as well
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#283

Post by Ruslan »

erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Yea, I keep suggesting that we just ban wings. So far in all the various forums I have been on, I have had only one person agree with me.
There has to be a reason when only one agrees with you.
Maybe some lack imagination and are just too set in their ways. NASCAR banned wings. Why does an F1 car have to have wings?
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#284

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Yea, I keep suggesting that we just ban wings. So far in all the various forums I have been on, I have had only one person agree with me.
There has to be a reason when only one agrees with you.
Maybe some lack imagination and are just too set in their ways. NASCAR banned wings. Why does an F1 car have to have wings?
The Arrows A2 did not have wings per se..... what it had was integral to the body / engine cover. That was back in 1979 in the ground effect era. :smiley: (Not the most successful car on the planet, but others played with the idea.)

Image

Image

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#285

Post by erwin greven »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Maybe some lack imagination and are just too set in their ways. NASCAR banned wings. Why does an F1 car have to have wings?
Since when did it ban wings? It should ban side skirts.
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#286

Post by Star »

That's a good looking car in my opinion.

If they did ban the wings, no one would be at a disadvantage as it would be the same for everyone. If it improves the racing too, surely the teams should jump at the chance to do that, or if they don't, the FIA should.
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