PENALTIES... are they fair in the current system

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PENALTIES... are they fair in the current system

#1

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Im a little concerned about the whole penalty system. Im sure others have their views as well

Time to dig deep, be brave and tell us what you really think about the current penalty system. Probably a subject that needs an exclusive thread so here it is.


The main issue I have is when is a penalty enough and when is a penalty over the top?
Do the crime and pay the time is one thing but...... have F1 got it right? I dont think so by a long shot.

We have had a few race, even championship disrupting incidents in the past couple of weeks. Silverstone, where Lewis was 'predominantly' (judged by the stewards not a fanvote!) to blame. He was allowed to repair his car whilst Max was being checked over medically and Red Bull were counting the cost of a) the crash and b) the championship effect. Lewis was penalised a fairly inconsequential time penalty (10 secs) that on a track like Silverstone allowed him to breeze through the field and win again. Hardly a penalty in most people eyes, more a minor bump in the road.

At Hungary Bottas and Stroll between them wiped out a number of cars, and again directly affected the World Drivers and Constructors Championships. Millions of $ cost to those damaged and an event with only 2/3 of the planned entries. For that Stroll and Bottas get a 5 place grid penalty..... at Spa where overtaking is no problem and with respects both penalised drivers enjoy Mercedes engines ideally suited to the characteristics of Spa. Does anyone thing that Bottas if his stars align will not be close to the leading group by lets say lap 3?

It was not many years ago that Grosjean got banned for causing a crash on the opening lap at Spa.

Yet on the other foot, a driver keeps his nose clean all race, damages no one, does nothing controversial (beyond wearing a Gay Pride T Shirt pre - event). His team is rewarded with 2nd place, but despite the team telling him to stop the car after the flag, for technical reasons they are unable to, in the scrutineering bay, tip the car upside down and shake out the fuel hidden away. However, the Stewards are able to get a sample of 300ml, a third of the amount legislated. A breach no doubt. But the authorities happily admit it is sufficient to run the tests required with. So yes no doubt a breach in the law / regs, but not really much of an issue beyond that.
Of course if the fuel sample fails any tests, throw the book. That is a proper potentially result changing offence. Like crashing into someone....

If I go to the doctor and whilst there get asked for a urine sample, and I can only provide a dribble in the jar they say its ok that enough to test..... they dont chop my dick off or rip my bladder out!

Yet that team gets DSQ'd from a 2nd position and podium, with all the publicity and glory that an arguably 'new' team would enjoy and benefit from.

So my question is....

Is it fair that a driver causes a championship defining incident with his primary adversary, and gets an inconsequential penalty that allows him to still win the race, or a driver whose incompetent error robbing the event of many cars, then gets an inconsequential grid penalty to be served on a track which is at worse overtake friendly, fair when compared to a driver who committs no fault , finishes on the podium, to be provisionally (subject to appeal) DSQd for being unable to provide a fuel sample as legislated (but enough for the required tests to be carried out.

Or perhaps throw into the equation Giovinazzi's drive through with 10 second stop and go penalty for speeding in pitlane. No damage was done, no one was injured , no expensive repairs were needed. Yet he got a more impactful penalty in my view than Bottas or Stroll did.

Recently we had controversy and disagreements over penalties handed out to Norris and Perez at Austria. Or was it Styria? :dunno: :haha:

Is it time for the current penalty system to be thrown out and started again with something that is fair to all and relevant to the effect on the sport of the incident.

What are your thoughts, what would you do to fix it? (Other than send in the Mongols)

Feel free to mention any penalties.

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#2

Post by Circuitmaster »

My main concern currently is that the penalties seem to punish the act, rather than the consequence. That may seem fair, but F1 drivers are smart, and this system is open to abuse.

If I was Red Bull I'd be constructing a situation in which Sergio can take out Lewis in the next race. I was thinking it after Silverstone, and I'm absolutely thinking it after Hungary.
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#3

Post by Mawerick »

Circuitmaster wrote: 2 years agoMy main concern currently is that the penalties seem to punish the act, rather than the consequence.
Really? A 10 second time penalty vs 5 place drop in the grid for basically the same mistake, misjudging your braking point.

F1 needs to get a grip and appoint permanent judges for the entire season. That way we may have some hope of getting consistent penalties.
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#4

Post by Picci »

I fully agree with @Mawerick that there should be permanent stewards like there was pre-2006. You can't help but feel there is an inherent bias in a number of decisions. If I remember well Damon Hill was a steward when Schumacher overtook Alonso on the finish line under green lights when the safety car pulled in at Monaco in 2010. Derek Warwick (who I discovered recently Schumacher ran off the road back in touring) was the steward when Schumacher also pulled his move on Barrichello in 2010. Emanuele Pirro gave Hamilton the penalty at Silverstone.

Secondly, penalties have become too complicated. There are penalties for everything these days, starting with crossing the white line at the exit of the pitlane, to going off track, changing a gearbox or engine, not exactly following the right procedure when doing a sighting lap 20 mins before the start, when completing a maneouvre or having four wheels on the white stuff. That's way too much. It needs to be simplified. Maliciously driving into someone else is an offence. End of story. In my view the system we had up until 2003/2004 worked well. You didn't have many penalties back then and when there were they were usually for serious offences.

The problem these days is that all this has a trickle effect on the junior categories and the FIA is now big on road safety and that sort of stuff so they want the drivers to be a model example of wider society. Like I said I'm not trying to take away the need to have penalties whenever there is something malicious going on but use fines and warnings for other minor things that don't really affect the outcome of the race.
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#5

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Something I had not really thought about is that over the weekend the penalties fell into two distinct groups.... those issued to Stroll Bottas, Giovinazzi etc were for driving errors / standards, whereas the Vettel DSQ was for a technical breach, ie nothing to do with 'the Sporting code' or whatever they call it.

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#6

Post by Star »

I think the penalty system needs to be overhauled. I understand having different stewards as it prevents certain biases and particular drivers being more severely penalised if they are disliked by whoever is handing out said penalty. We all some people more than others and if you had a particular dislike for one driver you would perhaps be harder on them than a driver you did really like. That is human nature.

Saying that, I think there should be a standard list pf penalties that apply if certain rules are broken. Speeding in the pit lane, unsafe release, not providing a car to be weighed or not enough fuel etc.

It gets harder when you start looking at on track infrigements. Putting a car of fthe track and that car is still able to carry on is one thing, putting a car off the track and forcing them to crahs is quite another. Trying to decide how much was each drivers fault makes it a job I wouldn't want to do as you're always going to upset someone.

It's has seemed very unfair lately as it hasn't felt even handed. That is when people get most upset I would say.
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#7

Post by Michkov »

I'm sorry but your basic premise is wrong. No matter what penalties have to be assessed on a case by case basis without any regard who the drivers involved are, else you end up with a double standard in which the same incident will be punished differently according to where the drivers are situated in the championship.

That said I can certainly see room for improvement in certain reg. Take the fuel for example, that regulation seems to be written with refuelling in mind, because taking the sample prerace while the team is filling the tanks and sealing the tank a la Le Mans is within the bounds of 1920s technology.

As far as driving standards go I'd up the minimum penalty to 10 second stop go take no service and drop the lower ones and a bit more draconic attitude in handing them out. I think it would cut down on some of the nonsense we have come accustomed over the past few years like pushing drivers of the road just because there is hard standing runoff available.
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#8

Post by MonteCristo »

I'd also get rid of the 'post race investigation' stuff as much as possible.
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#9

Post by caneparo »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago Im a little concerned about the whole penalty system. Im sure others have their views as well

Time to dig deep, be brave and tell us what you really think about the current penalty system. Probably a subject that needs an exclusive thread so here it is.


The main issue I have is when is a penalty enough and when is a penalty over the top?
Do the crime and pay the time is one thing but...... have F1 got it right? I dont think so by a long shot.

We have had a few race, even championship disrupting incidents in the past couple of weeks. Silverstone, where Lewis was 'predominantly' (judged by the stewards not a fanvote!) to blame. He was allowed to repair his car whilst Max was being checked over medically and Red Bull were counting the cost of a) the crash and b) the championship effect. Lewis was penalised a fairly inconsequential time penalty (10 secs) that on a track like Silverstone allowed him to breeze through the field and win again. Hardly a penalty in most people eyes, more a minor bump in the road.

At Hungary Bottas and Stroll between them wiped out a number of cars, and again directly affected the World Drivers and Constructors Championships. Millions of $ cost to those damaged and an event with only 2/3 of the planned entries. For that Stroll and Bottas get a 5 place grid penalty..... at Spa where overtaking is no problem and with respects both penalised drivers enjoy Mercedes engines ideally suited to the characteristics of Spa. Does anyone thing that Bottas if his stars align will not be close to the leading group by lets say lap 3?

It was not many years ago that Grosjean got banned for causing a crash on the opening lap at Spa.

Yet on the other foot, a driver keeps his nose clean all race, damages no one, does nothing controversial (beyond wearing a Gay Pride T Shirt pre - event). His team is rewarded with 2nd place, but despite the team telling him to stop the car after the flag, for technical reasons they are unable to, in the scrutineering bay, tip the car upside down and shake out the fuel hidden away. However, the Stewards are able to get a sample of 300ml, a third of the amount legislated. A breach no doubt. But the authorities happily admit it is sufficient to run the tests required with. So yes no doubt a breach in the law / regs, but not really much of an issue beyond that.
Of course if the fuel sample fails any tests, throw the book. That is a proper potentially result changing offence. Like crashing into someone....

If I go to the doctor and whilst there get asked for a urine sample, and I can only provide a dribble in the jar they say its ok that enough to test..... they dont chop my dick off or rip my bladder out!

Yet that team gets DSQ'd from a 2nd position and podium, with all the publicity and glory that an arguably 'new' team would enjoy and benefit from.

So my question is....

Is it fair that a driver causes a championship defining incident with his primary adversary, and gets an inconsequential penalty that allows him to still win the race, or a driver whose incompetent error robbing the event of many cars, then gets an inconsequential grid penalty to be served on a track which is at worse overtake friendly, fair when compared to a driver who committs no fault , finishes on the podium, to be provisionally (subject to appeal) DSQd for being unable to provide a fuel sample as legislated (but enough for the required tests to be carried out.

Or perhaps throw into the equation Giovinazzi's drive through with 10 second stop and go penalty for speeding in pitlane. No damage was done, no one was injured , no expensive repairs were needed. Yet he got a more impactful penalty in my view than Bottas or Stroll did.

Recently we had controversy and disagreements over penalties handed out to Norris and Perez at Austria. Or was it Styria? :dunno: :haha:

Is it time for the current penalty system to be thrown out and started again with something that is fair to all and relevant to the effect on the sport of the incident.

What are your thoughts, what would you do to fix it? (Other than send in the Mongols)

Feel free to mention any penalties.
100% agree. You mentioned Grosjean accident at Spa which came into my mind as well. The penalty must take into account the relevance of the damage done. The current penalty system is total bullshit
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#10

Post by RoBertino »

Most people say that the penalties are stronky not-consistent all the time.
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#11

Post by PTRACER »

I'm trying to remember when all this penalty rubbish started. I seem to remember that around 2010 - 2012, you could get time penalties for just touching another car. Or sometimes when not touching a car at all and just driving very defensively. I just don't remember when this became part of the rules.

These days, the situation is much better, but there are still too many penalties on offer during each race weekend. 5 second penalties, 10 second penalties, pitstop penalties, post-race penalties, 3 place grid drops, 5 place grid drops, 10 place grid drops, back of the grid drops.

I feel like if the ONLY penalty was a 10 second stop/go penalty, just like the old days, then it would improve things a lot.
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