2021 Max v Lewis Hungry for More Hungarian GP

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Ian-S
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#331

Post by Ian-S »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Circuitmaster wrote: 2 years ago
Ian-S wrote: 2 years ago
They’ll probably introduce a rule about pit lane being shut until the end of the first lap on start/restarts to avoid that in the future, F1 looked a bit silly with just one car on the grid tbh.
Hmm.. not sure. If it started pouring on the formation lap, wouldn't that force everyone to race on dry tires? F1 would look plenty silly then..
You’re expecting Formula One to use common sense and have consistency? Did you not watch Silverstone and Hungary LOL.
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#332

Post by Kai-Star »

In all the years I've watched F1, this is a first - starting the grid with 1 car. This season once again provides the goods.
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#333

Post by Star »

Apparently Aston Martin are going to appeal the disqualification of Vettel's car and it will be heard on Monday. If they are right, he may get back his 2nd place after all and they can all swap the trophies around again ;)

Full story here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-s ... l/6643041/
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#334

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Star wrote: 2 years ago Apparently Aston Martin are going to appeal the disqualification of Vettel's car and it will be heard on Monday. If they are right, he may get back his 2nd place after all and they can all swap the trophies around again ;)

Full story here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-s ... l/6643041/
Hehehe I quite like the idea of Vettel getting the points back and dropping Lewis to 3rd, narrowing the gap to Max, but he will drop points as well (Not as many as Lewis.) But then Kimi will lose his point as well! Im torn.
I actually dont think it will succeed.... it might set a dangerous precedent on something that appears black and white. The rule says you must be able to provide 1 litre of fuel. They couldnt. The rule does not say anything about it must have a litre in the system and it doesnt matter if you cant access it which seems to be where AM are at.

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#335

Post by Star »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago
Star wrote: 2 years ago Apparently Aston Martin are going to appeal the disqualification of Vettel's car and it will be heard on Monday. If they are right, he may get back his 2nd place after all and they can all swap the trophies around again ;)

Full story here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-s ... l/6643041/
Hehehe I quite like the idea of Vettel getting the points back and dropping Lewis to 3rd, narrowing the gap to Max, but he will drop points as well (Not as many as Lewis.) But then Kimi will lose his point as well! Im torn.
I actually dont think it will succeed.... it might set a dangerous precedent on something that appears black and white. The rule says you must be able to provide 1 litre of fuel. They couldnt. The rule does not say anything about it must have a litre in the system and it doesnt matter if you cant access it which seems to be where AM are at.
Clearly one way or another AM think they can and they are going to do so. It obviously doesn't say how you have to provide it and they are working that to their advantage, just like many other teams work the rules to their advantage when it suits them to. AM claim it's down to a faulty pump and they may be right, clearly the FIA are prepared to let them try.

As a friend of mine said, why don't they take and seal and samples when the fuel is being put into the cars? Wouldn't that be easier and save all of this?

I hope they can provide it, I want Seb to get his trophy back ;) :fingers:
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#336

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Strange stat for Carlos Sainz....

Last weekend was his career 4th podium. Strange thing is he has only actually climbed onto the podium for two (50%) of them.

Sainz did get to celebrate two podium finishes 'properly', both of which were runner-up results. He finished in second place in the 2020 Italian Grand Prix at Monza, and he did so again in the 2021 Monaco Grand Prix.

The other two podiums he inherited from others DSQ..... last weekend it was Vettel whose DSQ promoted Carlos to 3rd, and prior to that at the 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix, Lewis Hamilton lost his podium finish when he was issued with a post-race penalty for causing a late collision that knocked Alexander Albon out of second, and Lewis was dropped to seventh, thus promoting Sainz to what was then a career-high third.

I guess historically they count as podiums but Im sure they are better when you get to spray the Bubbly. :drunk:

(Of course this is all on the basis that he keeps last weekends inherited podium, dependant on the Aston DSQ appeal against Vettel's exclusion. :wink: )

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#337

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Star wrote: 2 years ago Apparently Aston Martin are going to appeal the disqualification of Vettel's car and it will be heard on Monday. If they are right, he may get back his 2nd place after all and they can all swap the trophies around again ;)
And the verdict is in......

Aston Martin fails in review bid of Vettel's Hungarian GP DSQ

Aston Martin initially believed that telemetry data from the car showed there to be 1.44 litres more fuel in the car than the 0.3-litres that the FIA initially was able to pump out. It reckoned that a fuel system failure in the car had contributed to the circumstances and meant that the fuel had not been pumped into the tank where the FIA could access it. The team launched both a right to review request with the stewards, and also has formally appealed against the decision.

At the FIA hearing on Monday, the FIA denied Aston Martin’s request to review the case because the latest indications from the team were that a mechanical problem potentially meant there was not one-litre of fuel left at all.

For the request to review to be accepted, Aston Martin needed to provide a ‘significant’ and ‘relevant’ new element that was discovered after the event and had been unavailable to the competitor at the time of the decision.

At the hearing, the team submitted analysis from more than 100 channels of fuel-system related data to show that there had been a fuel system failure in Vettel’s car.

This failure of fuel cell pressure meant the air pump in the fuel cell activated a maximum output which, by pumping air through the fuel cell, meant a significant amount of fuel was discharged from the car. It was this failure that meant only 0.3 litres of fuel could be extracted afterwards.

The FIA accepted that this evidence, which pointed to a malfunction of the fuel cell pressure relief value, was a new element.

After further investigations by Aston Martin, it emerged that the team believes that there was actually less than one-litre of fuel remaining in the car at the end of the race due to the fuel system problem. Therefore, the FIA felt that the new evidence was not relevant to the case.

The FIA Statement
An FIA statement said: “For the assessment of whether or not the one-litre requirement was broken, it does not make a difference why there was less than one litre.

“There may be a couple of explanations why at the end of a race the remaining amount is insufficient. In any case, it remains the sole responsibility of the Competitor to ensure that the car is in conformity with the regulations all times (Art. 3.2 FIA International Sporting Code) and it shall be no defence to claim that no performance advantage was obtained (Art 1.3.3 FIA International Sporting Code).

“In order to be able to affirm a “relevant” fact, Aston Martin would have had to present facts that actually more than one-litre of fuel was remaining. The explanation why this requirement could not be met is not relevant to the decision as to whether a breach of the regulations has occurred.”

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#338

Post by Ruslan »

So the problem is that they didn't have a liter of fuel. That kind of settles it.

Seeing how they cannot refuel during the race, why don't they just take fuel from some of the cars just before they start, or is there a concern with additives somehow being added during the race?
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#339

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Seeing how they cannot refuel during the race, why don't they just take fuel from some of the cars just before they start, or is there a concern with additives somehow being added during the race?
I know they are at liberty (sic) to take fuel from any car at any time during the entire event. In fact I looked up in the FIA Sporting regs... the fuel sampling section is as follows below.... it is quite clear as to the 'hows, and ease of obtaining samples' how much needs to be in the tank if a car does not return to the pits under its own power (as Vettel and also the Williams cars which were cleared of any irregularities in supplying of samples from both their cars which also stopped on the inlap)

It all seems pretty black and white.

Why not prior to the race? AFAIK the rules state that any car finishing on the podium (plus any additional cars as chosen by the stewards / FIA) will automatically be required to provide post race samples. (For instance as mentioned the 2x Williams cars were selected post race along with the podium getters simply because they were both ordered by their pitlane to stop immediately on track, thus raising suspicion of an irregularity due to lack of fuel)
6.6 Fuel draining and sampling
6.6.1 Competitors must provide a means of removing all fuel from the car.
6.6.2 Competitors must ensure that a 1.0 litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time
during the Event.
After a practice session, if a car has not been driven back to the pits under its own power, it
will be required to supply the above mentioned sample plus the amount of fuel that would
have been consumed to drive back to the pits. The additional amount of fuel will be
determined by the FIA.
6.6.3 All cars must be fitted with a –2 'Symetrics' male fitting in order to facilitate fuel sampling. If
an electric pump on board the car cannot be used to remove the fuel an externally connected
one may be used provided it is evident that a representative fuel sample is being taken. If an
external pump is used it must be possible to connect the FIA sampling hose to it and any hose
between the car and pump must be -3 in diameter and not exceed 2m in length. Details of
the fuel sampling hose may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
6.6.4 The sampling procedure must not necessitate starting the engine or the removal of bodywork
(other than the nosebox assembly and the cover over any refuelling connector)
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -12-16.pdf (Page 52/53)

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#340

Post by Ruslan »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago In fact I looked up in the FIA Sporting regs...
You are industrious.
Why not prior to the race? AFAIK the rules state that any car finishing on the podium (plus any additional cars as chosen by the stewards / FIA) will automatically be required to provide post race samples.
So why not test the top four qualifiers and two other random cars just before the race, while they are on the grid. Then allow them to put a liter back.

The regulations are pretty clear, Aston Martin did not stand a chance in appeal. But, maybe they should "tweak" the regulations so we don't have to disqualify any cars over a "minor" issue.
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#341

Post by Michkov »

Tests need time I imagine, but generally I'd agree, take a sample when fuelling the car, seal the tank. Then you'd have the whole race to run the tests without delay to the goings on in the race. And it's not like motorsports officials have been sealing tanks since the earliest days of the sport either. Maybe thats it the solution is not high tech enough for F1 :D
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#342

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#343

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

In all fairness it was seemingly black and white that they were breaching the rules as written, so its no surprise. Once they said they actually could not prove this mystery 1.4 litres previously mentioned actually existed they were doomed.
I think this appeal was more about the penalty applied being too severe, than the actual guilty / not guilty verdict, but at the end of the day breaches of tech regs generally attract DSQ's and have done through history.

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#344

Post by Star »

Oh well, I thought Seb deserved the place, it's a shame he lost it on a technical fault. That is down to the team, not him.

I agree with @Ruslan, take the sample before the race, once it's in the car if necessary. It would solve all of this.
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#345

Post by PTRACER »

Shame, I suppose, but rules are rules.
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#346

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Star wrote: 2 years ago Oh well, I thought Seb deserved the place, it's a shame he lost it on a technical fault. That is down to the team, not him.

I agree with @Ruslan, take the sample before the race, once it's in the car if necessary. It would solve all of this.
As you sat nothing to do with him and yes he drove well to get that result.

I wonder whether the post race fuel sample thing is just a hangover from the refuelling days when of course one could understand needing a post race sample. :dunno: :huh:

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