The 2021 Deja-vu Austrian GP from Styria.

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#181

Post by Kai-Star »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Remember, what was it, about 10 years ago when all the penalties were investigated after the race and the judgement was passed onto the next race? That sucked a lot more than this. I've mostly been happy with how penalties have gone the past few years. Racing incidents have been just that, racing incidents. While there has been an outcry over these turn 4 dilemmas, at the end of the day, the penalties dished out hardly affected the race. Maybe Perez is the most unlucky, but then he also did the same later, twice.
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#182

Post by Circuitmaster »

MonteCristo wrote: 2 years ago
Circuitmaster wrote: 2 years ago Just a lingering thought, not necessarily replying to any specific post and I'm not sure if this has already been said but:

If we start to blame drivers for making bold moves, they'll stop making bold moves.

I don't know exactly what the rules are, I must admit.. but I feel if I was being passed around the outside I should give that guy a car's width if he's anywhere close to alongside me. And if that means putting my foot down slightly later, well then that just means his attempt at passing me wasn't necessarily so foolhardy in the first place.

I know that it'll always be hard to judge where 'alongside' begins and ends. Unless you wanna start putting sensors in the cars and drawing lines on the side-pods, I think we'll have to continue to leave it up to the judgement of the stewards.
Croft and Di Resta were railing against the penalty.

"We want hard racing!" they cried.

But if a car's width had been left and the car got past (or simply raced alongside until the next corner and didn't even complete the pass), they'd be the first to proclaim what wonderful racing there is.
Precisely. The only people to blame for the wave of penalties this week were the drivers. Particularly Sergio, who inexplicably copied Lando's defence which he must have known had been punished.

Maybe next time out they'll leave each other room, and the battle will go on a little longer. Hard racing is not forcing people off the track.
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#183

Post by White six »

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... n/6626942/

Well, the general paddock feeling is against you penalty pushers :p

Driving a car out of a corner isn't the same as down a straight
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#184

Post by Ruslan »

White six wrote: 2 years ago https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... n/6626942/

Well, the general paddock feeling is against you penalty pushers :p

Driving a car out of a corner isn't the same as down a straight
What does the majority actually feel about this?
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#185

Post by White six »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
White six wrote: 2 years ago https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... n/6626942/

Well, the general paddock feeling is against you penalty pushers :p

Driving a car out of a corner isn't the same as down a straight
What does the majority actually feel about this?
Majority of who?
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#186

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

White six wrote: 2 years ago https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... n/6626942/

Well, the general paddock feeling is against you penalty pushers :p

Driving a car out of a corner isn't the same as down a straight
this is affecting not only F1 but even grassroots motorsport, a couple of years ago I watched a Clio Cup race where every single time a driver touched or came anywhere near another car he or she was put under investigation. Therefore every time someone passed another car on track an investigation was opened. It was a 30 minutes race and if I remember correctly they managed to deploy the SC twice (because someone had run off the track somewhere, no accidents).

In the good old days in the Clio Cup you were supposed to "knock" the car in front when you were trying to pass (to this day I still don't understand what was the advantage of knocking the rear bumper of the car in front but everyone was doing it)

I find all this very silly and very sad
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#187

Post by Michael Ferner »

In "the good ole days" (were they ever?) motor racing was dangerous, and everybody avoided contact - if someone was faster, you let him pass. Since racing has become safer, drivers "defend" - "closing the door" or running someone off the track wasn't an issue forty or fifty years ago. Well, at least not with open wheel racing cars.

EDIT: Let me rephrase that: closing the door wasn't an issue fifty years ago, it became one in the seventies with the first wave of safety features on tracks and cars. Running someone off the track wasn't until forty years ago, before the likes of Senna and Schumacher appeared, a new generation that had never seen death and grave injury as a regular feature in racing.
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#188

Post by erwin greven »

Good idea to edit that: Farina had a bad reputation when passing slower cars. Two drivers crashed fatally after a pass went wrong. Also when racing against Jack Brabham several drivers did not feel comfortable.
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#189

Post by Ruslan »

White six wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
White six wrote: 2 years ago https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... n/6626942/

Well, the general paddock feeling is against you penalty pushers :p

Driving a car out of a corner isn't the same as down a straight
What does the majority actually feel about this?
Majority of who?
Well maybe:

1. Poll the people on the forum.
2. Poll the people on the forum who have actually raced (I am not one of them)
3. What is the opinion of the majority of F1 drivers, I only know the opinion of two (Norris and Perez….).
4. What is the opinion do the majority of the F1 community? It was clear that the two broadcasters on Sky F1 did not approve of the penalty.
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#190

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 years ago In "the good ole days" (were they ever?) motor racing was dangerous, and everybody avoided contact - if someone was faster, you let him pass. Since racing has become safer, drivers "defend" - "closing the door" or running someone off the track wasn't an issue forty or fifty years ago. Well, at least not with open wheel racing cars.

EDIT: Let me rephrase that: closing the door wasn't an issue fifty years ago, it became one in the seventies with the first wave of safety features on tracks and cars. Running someone off the track wasn't until forty years ago, before the likes of Senna and Schumacher appeared, a new generation that had never seen death and grave injury as a regular feature in racing.
danger was (and I believe still is) part of the allure of motorsport. I wouldn't say that everybody avoided contact and that you would let pass someone faster, I'd say that it was different as contact was common in closed wheel racing and it was avoided (when possible) in single seaters only because the cars weren't very strong and you risked doing some damage to your car (I'm talking from the 70s onwards, I can't comment on what went on before that). Also now it's common practice to wave under braking when defending from someone else faster than you (I jknow that the FIA thinks otherwise but still there's a lot going on) and even 30 years ago that was considered unethical, before than you had to consider that cars were very different and they didn't change direction like they do now. Add to that the fact that nowadays braking isn't an issue and you never miss a gear so attack and defense are different because the cars are different, the tracks are different and what is now deemed ok wasn't ok a few yeas ago.
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#191

Post by White six »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 years ago In "the good ole days" (were they ever?) motor racing was dangerous, and everybody avoided contact - if someone was faster, you let him pass. Since racing has become safer, drivers "defend" - "closing the door" or running someone off the track wasn't an issue forty or fifty years ago. Well, at least not with open wheel racing cars.

EDIT: Let me rephrase that: closing the door wasn't an issue fifty years ago, it became one in the seventies with the first wave of safety features on tracks and cars. Running someone off the track wasn't until forty years ago, before the likes of Senna and Schumacher appeared, a new generation that had never seen death and grave injury as a regular feature in racing.
You still had a few that were prepared to get elbows out mind. Jones, Patrese spring to mind. Yep, consequences were much riskier then

Yes, that's after your first wave of safety measures, sure

You would say that nobody in their right mind would risk going round the outside back then. Such moves tended to be famous in the 80s, like the Piquet drift at Hungary and Mansell at Mexico, kinda shows they were pretty rare

Safety probably encouraging riskier stuff like you say. Somewhere there must be a balance between penalties for stupid dangerous stuff, and no penalties for situations where the stupid dangerous stuff might be the overtaking manoeuvre itself
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#192

Post by Michael Ferner »

I wouldn't put too much credence in "reputations" such as Farina's or Brabham's, as it was much more difficult back then to objectively judge a situation without the ever present TV cameras. Someone airs his opinion, and it gets endlessly repeated, but on what basis? You can stand trackside at the right spot and still don't get the full picture. And even with the "impartial" camera present, it's so easy to get it wrong. Case in point, I always considered Schumacher at fault in his 1995 collision with Damon Hill at Silverstone, based mostly (I will confess) on their respective reputations, and only very recently I saw the same scene from a different angle, and it became clear that Damon overshot the corner, while Michael left him enough room.

Pure errors of judgement aside (which were always possible and not too uncommon in a sport like this), it's safe to say that nobody risked contact before, say, the late sixties or early seventies. By then, a lot of money poured into the sport, while cars and tracks were improved bit by bit to make contact less of a fatal concept - it became more and more "attractive" to take risks beyond those already inherent in the sport. Soon enough, the practice of closing the door on overtaking cars began to rear its ugly head, and I never really understood why the authorities didn't try to nip this in the bud. Even today, this most basic of driver errors is hardly ever penalized - in one of the two races I watched last year, Lance Stroll closed the door on an overtaking driver (I think it was Kvyat) who was well within his limts (he even took to the inside curb in avoidance!!), and the outcome was a rare case of racing justice, as Stroll flipped out of the race, while the other driver got away with it yet, astonishingly, was later penalized for the incident! :nuts:

Clean defending seems completely out of vogue these days, and one reason may be the DRS - I can somehow sympathize, when you get attacked by a driver who has no right to be there other than by using an arbitrary "show improvement tool" it's certainly hard to yield your position. But then again, it's the same for everyone.

Overall, driving standards are shockingly low these days; the amount of weaving on the straights alone is just disgraceful, and not fun to watch. For the fans, penalties are a nuisance, but if driving standards get this far away from acceptable, there's no other option. On the other hand, you could also say that the ship has already sailed, and those penalties are mere cosmetics to try and hide the complete failure of authorities to keep racing clean. Either way, I can't get used to the fact that today's F1 drivers are worse than a bunch of Formula Ford novices three decades ago.
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