2021 AZERBAIJAN GP

Current Formula One related news, information and discussion.
User avatar
Ruslan
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Circuit: Monaco actually
Location: Washington, DC

#391

Post by Ruslan »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Mawerick wrote: 2 years ago Problem with banning wings is that you'd have to ban them in all lower classes as well.
Yea I think so.

The thing is, you can do it under the rubric of "safety" as slowing the cars down in the corners certainly makes them safer.

But yea, banning wings is a huge step, so I have never found too many people on board with this idea. NASCAR at one point had wings.
White six
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: 3 years ago

#392

Post by White six »

No need to ban wings , just cut the ridiculous size of the front wings, reduce the number of pieces of carbon fibre flapping around.

No more than two stronger elements per side, reduce the size, job done
The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
User avatar
Ruslan
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Circuit: Monaco actually
Location: Washington, DC

#393

Post by Ruslan »

@White six Yea, I think that would help a lot. Still, I tend to believe that big problems require big solutions, and F1 spends a lot time doing tweaks that really don’t solve their problems (notable exception: the budget cap).
User avatar
Mawerick
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 8 years ago
Real Name: Mauri
Favourite Motorsport: F1
Favourite Racing Car: AAR Eagle T1G
Favourite Driver: Jim Clark
Favourite Circuit: Spa-Francorchamps

#394

Post by Mawerick »

I think they should also reduce the number of mechanics working on the car during pit stops. For example, only one guy per corner when changing wheels. This would slow down pit stops and also introduce a greater chance of a cock-up.
"It’s a Mickey Mouse circuit. To have a race at a track like this is an insult to Grand Prix racing."
-Graham Hill commenting the Le Mans Bugatti track

- 2021 Guess The Pole champion! -
User avatar
PTRACER
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
Posts: 42138
Joined: 20 years ago
Real Name: Paul
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Racing Car: Lotus 49
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt
Favourite Circuit: Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X JDM
Contact:

#395

Post by PTRACER »

Mawerick wrote: 2 years ago I think they should also reduce the number of mechanics working on the car during pit stops. For example, only one guy per corner when changing wheels. This would slow down pit stops and also introduce a greater chance of a cock-up.
Agreed. These 2 second pitstops are impressive but also meaningless.

Also, people who think wings should be banned are living in a fantasy land.
Developer of the 1967v3 Historic Mod for Grand Prix Legends: viewtopic.php?t=17429

King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records
User avatar
erwin greven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 20027
Joined: 19 years ago
Real Name: Erwin Greven
Favourite Motorsport: Endurance Racing
Favourite Racing Car: Lancia Delta 038 S4 Group B
Favourite Driver: Ronnie Peterson
Favourite Circuit: Nuerburgring Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Peugeot 206 SW Air-Line 3 2007
Location: Stadskanaal, Groningen
Contact:

#396

Post by erwin greven »

Mawerick wrote: 2 years ago This would slow down pit stops and also introduce a greater chance of a cock-up.
Mercedes: "Hold my beer"
Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."
User avatar
erwin greven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 20027
Joined: 19 years ago
Real Name: Erwin Greven
Favourite Motorsport: Endurance Racing
Favourite Racing Car: Lancia Delta 038 S4 Group B
Favourite Driver: Ronnie Peterson
Favourite Circuit: Nuerburgring Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Peugeot 206 SW Air-Line 3 2007
Location: Stadskanaal, Groningen
Contact:

#397

Post by erwin greven »

PTRACER wrote: 2 years ago Agreed. These 2 second pitstops are impressive but also meaningless.

Also, people who think wings should be banned are living in a fantasy land.
One mistake and you lose seconds or even the race. Bottas at Monaco.
Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."
User avatar
MonteCristo
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10660
Joined: 8 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Openwheel
Favourite Racing Car: Tyrrell P34/Protos
Favourite Driver: JV
Favourite Circuit: Road America
Location: Brisbane, Australia

#398

Post by MonteCristo »

I've said for years that when it comes to aero, they should introduce a surface area rule.

You can be fancy with what you've got, but only to a certain extent.

You don't need 27 layers of front wing elements, as remarkable as they are.
Oscar Piastri in F1! Catch the fever! Vettel Hate Club. Life membership.

2012 GTP Non-Championship Champion | 2012 Guess the Kai-Star Half Marathon Time Champion | 2018 GTP Champion | 2019 GTP Champion
P. Cornelius Scipio
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve

#399

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago

Yea, they have gotten themselves on a path that is hard to get off of. On the other hand, I have been a lone voice on these forums for a while that maybe F1 should just ban all wings.
I agree
Including the banning wings idea?
yes
User avatar
Ruslan
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Circuit: Monaco actually
Location: Washington, DC

#400

Post by Ruslan »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago

Yea, they have gotten themselves on a path that is hard to get off of. On the other hand, I have been a lone voice on these forums for a while that maybe F1 should just ban all wings.
I agree
Including the banning wings idea?
yes
Well, I am surprised. It is a pretty radical and "non-traditional" solution.
P. Cornelius Scipio
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve

#401

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago

Yea, they have gotten themselves on a path that is hard to get off of. On the other hand, I have been a lone voice on these forums for a while that maybe F1 should just ban all wings.
I agree
Including the banning wings idea?
yes
Well, I am surprised. It is a pretty radical and "non-traditional" solution.
I think that more F1 insiders that we think agree that wings are a problem. Ban wings and you open up many other areas for innovation and improvement. Banning wings wouldn't mean no downforce, even allowing a flat bottom they can come up with many ways of generating some downforce. The problem with the wings in use these days is that they generate a lot of turbulence. Get rid of the wings and they will come up with many new ideas. Also if you allow more than one tyre supplier they will come up with tyres that perform much better while lasting as long (if not longer) than the garbage that they are using these days. Cornering speed would remain high even without wings because the combination of better tyres and more emphasis on mechanical grip will result in very high cornering speeds. But there won't be a problem with turbulence.

I agree that brakes are an issue because nowadays the braking distance got so short that they barely have the chance to try and make a move on another car, but again a lot of the braking effect is down to downforce (if someone don't believe me try lifting at 250 kph with any modern single seater and see what happens), get rid of the wings and you are bound to reduce (at least slightly) downforce and therefore braking distance will get (a bit) longer.

The problem with banning wings is not that it would dumb down F1, on the contrary, it's that it would be a revolution and that the pecking order might be disrupted. Wings are a bit pointless because you can't use them on road cars, so it's not real innovation for the automotive industry. An engine capable of running at over 20,000 rpm one day could be relevant even for road cars (assuming that we will be allowed to use petrol powered cars in the future)
User avatar
Ruslan
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Circuit: Monaco actually
Location: Washington, DC

#402

Post by Ruslan »

Tire-gate continues: https://www.grandprix.com/news/pirelli- ... lated.html

"However, Italy's La Gazzetta dello Sport now cites Pirelli sources in suggesting that Red Bull and Aston Martin may have been running tyre pressures that were too low."

Now, they did tell all the teams to increase the minimum pressure from 19 pounds to 20 for this race. Did Red Bull and Aston Martin not do that? Were they running several pounds lower than that? Is this patrolled? Is this monitored on team telemetry (I assume so). Would Pirelli know this at the time?

What are the rules and regulations about tire pressure? If Pirelli says the minimum pressure is 20 PSI, are teams required to follow that. If they do not, are there penalties?

If Verstappen was running low, then was Perez (who was just as fast)? Is there a reason that Christian Horner immediately blamed Pirelli and called for a halt to the race?

I do note the use of the phrase "may have been." Isn't this something that people would know or not know? Is this just Pirelli trying to muddy the waters so as take away some of the blame from them?
User avatar
Ruslan
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1742
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Motorsport: Formula 1
Favourite Circuit: Monaco actually
Location: Washington, DC

#403

Post by Ruslan »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago I think that more F1 insiders that we think agree that wings are a problem.
Well, I am just some guy on a forum, but I have been floating this idea out for more than a decade. Usually I get some response like "Also, people who think wings should be banned are living in a fantasy land."

I have not seen anything in the news over the last decade about anyone discussing this.
Ban wings and you open up many other areas for innovation and improvement. Banning wings wouldn't mean no downforce, even allowing a flat bottom they can come up with many ways of generating some downforce. The problem with the wings in use these days is that they generate a lot of turbulence. Get rid of the wings and they will come up with many new ideas. Also if you allow more than one tyre supplier they will come up with tyres that perform much better while lasting as long (if not longer) than the garbage that they are using these days. Cornering speed would remain high even without wings because the combination of better tyres and more emphasis on mechanical grip will result in very high cornering speeds. But there won't be a problem with turbulence.
Well said. Added to that, FIA can also regulate the maximum width of the car.
I agree that brakes are an issue because nowadays the braking distance got so short that they barely have the chance to try and make a move on another car, but again a lot of the braking effect is down to downforce (if someone don't believe me try lifting at 250 kph with any modern single seater and see what happens), get rid of the wings and you are bound to reduce (at least slightly) downforce and therefore braking distance will get (a bit) longer.
We do need to go back to longer brake distances. Banning wings would probably be all that you need, but they may be well served to control or restrict braking materials also.
The problem with banning wings is not that it would dumb down F1, on the contrary, it's that it would be a revolution and that the pecking order might be disrupted. Wings are a bit pointless because you can't use them on road cars, so it's not real innovation for the automotive industry. An engine capable of running at over 20,000 rpm one day could be relevant even for road cars (assuming that we will be allowed to use petrol powered cars in the future)
Disrupting the pecking order would be good, especially with the budget cap in place.

As you know, I have also been arguing for a budget cap for a decade or more. Needless to say I got a lot of abuse on the forums for suggesting such a "communist" idea. We shall see how the budget caps works (but I think we are already seeing some positive results from it).

I am not sure what to do about engines. The last time I tired to take an engine apart, I could not get it back together, so this is hardly my area of expertise.
User avatar
erwin greven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 20027
Joined: 19 years ago
Real Name: Erwin Greven
Favourite Motorsport: Endurance Racing
Favourite Racing Car: Lancia Delta 038 S4 Group B
Favourite Driver: Ronnie Peterson
Favourite Circuit: Nuerburgring Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Peugeot 206 SW Air-Line 3 2007
Location: Stadskanaal, Groningen
Contact:

#404

Post by erwin greven »

When wings are such a problem: then why is Indycar so good, F2 so great, F3 so competitive? They all have wings.
And again. NEXT year a complete new chassis, rules and maybe picking order.
Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."
P. Cornelius Scipio
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 3 years ago
Favourite Driver: Gilles Villeneuve

#405

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago When wings are such a problem: then why is Indycar so good, F2 so great, F3 so competitive? They all have wings.
And again. NEXT year a complete new chassis, rules and maybe picking order.
I must admit that you made a very good point. Anyway, the racing is good because the wings in F2 cars, or in F3s are (i) relatively small and (ii) generate a limited amount of turbulence. Would a small set of front and rear wings common to the whole field make for better racing? for sure, but what's the point of such wings if they are the same for everyone? they certainly don't improve the racing (nor the show), you could argue that they are good for selling that bit of space to some sponsor but other than that I see no real benefit of small simple wings

You could argue that if they use such wings in F2 and F3 there must be a reason: I can think of a very simple reason why they have such wings, the drivers must learn to set up their cars taking into consideration aerodynamics because if some of them graduate to F1 and they can't set up a car with wings they would be lost. In my humble racing experience I faced this:
Formula Ford (1600cc), no wings whatsoever,
Formula Alfa Boxer, very little wings, basically they there so that we would learn not to destroy them by hitting other cars in case we managed to move up the racing order
Formula Opel Lotus, again little wings but we could adjust them a little (angle)
F3, a big step, wings were mostly adjustable and if you had plenty of money you could have a couple of rear wings with different shapes. There were also some further improvements such a bandella on the rear wings (a Gurney flap in English) and you could remove the front wings if you fancied (I fancied this a lot, never saw any meaningful improvement)
F 3000, I tried such cars a few times and the wings were even more complex than F3
I might be wrong and my view is solely based upon my personal experience but wings in junior formulae were/are there for some very simple reasons:
- the lucky ones must learn how they work,
- the cars look more purposeful with wings on
- you can sell that space to some sponsor (I never did, I knew a guy who raced for a whole season with a sticker reading "I'm looking for sponsors, if you're interested please call ....", it was in his front wings and on the rear one as well, in case someone missed it)

Which brings me to another subject: why are modern wings so problematic in terms of turbulence? because they are there not only to create some downforce, but rather to "build" a wall of air to shield the tyres, basically the aerodynamic effect of modern cars is similar to group C prototypes, that's what all those winglets are there for. What's the improvement in racing and in the show if cars travel at 340 kmph rather than at 325?
User avatar
erwin greven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 20027
Joined: 19 years ago
Real Name: Erwin Greven
Favourite Motorsport: Endurance Racing
Favourite Racing Car: Lancia Delta 038 S4 Group B
Favourite Driver: Ronnie Peterson
Favourite Circuit: Nuerburgring Nordschleife
Car(s) Currently Owned: Peugeot 206 SW Air-Line 3 2007
Location: Stadskanaal, Groningen
Contact:

#406

Post by erwin greven »

Pirelli identifies cause of Baku failures

Pirelli says the failures suffered by Max Verstappen and Lance Stroll in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix were due to the running conditions of the tires.

Stroll had a high-speed accident on the run to the start/finish line when his left rear failed on lap 30, and then Verstappen had a very similar failure 17 laps later on the same part of the track while leading. Pirelli has now completed its analysis of what happened and delivered a report to the teams and FIA, stating the way the tires were being run was to blame, despite the teams following Pirelli’s initial guidance.

“This analysis also took in the tires used by other cars in the race, which had the same or a higher number of laps on them compared to the ones that were damaged,” the Pirelli statement read. “The process established that there was no production or quality defect on any of the tires; nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination.

“The causes of the two left-rear tire failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tire, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.

“As a result of this analysis, Pirelli have submitted their report to the FIA and the Teams. The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions.”

The suggestion is that the tires were not being run properly while out on track despite having been in the correct state when first put on the car, and Red Bull soon released its own statement in response to the report, reiterating that it followed Pirelli’s parameters.

“We have worked closely with Pirelli and the FIA during their investigation into Max’s tire failure on lap 47 of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix and can confirm that no car fault was found,” Red Bull said. “We adhered to Pirelli’s tire parameters at all times and will continue to follow their guidance.

“We are grateful that following the weekend’s high speed impacts no drivers were injured.”
https://racer.com/2021/06/15/pirelli-id ... -failures/
Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."
Post Reply