2021 F1 race thread *Round 1: Bahrain*

Current Formula One related news, information and discussion.
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Ruslan
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#271

Post by Ruslan »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Aty wrote: 3 years ago Lets have a look at my past hero' data.

(Source: Wiki) Alain Prost
Wins 51
Podiums 106
Career points 768.5 (798.5)
Pole positions 33
Well, Prost is unusual in that regard. From 1981-1985 he had 15 poles (and 21 wins). Then he got Senna as a teammate and competitor, arguably the greatest qualifier in F1. From 1986-1991 he had 5 poles (and 23 wins). Then in his last year in F1 he got 13 poles and only 7 wins.

Of course, qualifying is not the end all and be all of driver performance, but when I see Schumacher has 0 poles and Ilott has 6, it does make me wonder. Career-wise, Schumacher's six-year junior career shows 26 wins, 17 poles and 18 fastest laps. Callum Ilott 6-year junior career has 13 wins, 21 poles, 15 fastest laps. Yuki Tsunoda 5-year junior career shows 16 wins, 16 poles and 12 fastest laps.

My suspicion is that M. Schumacher is very well trained and developed, but may not be the next Hamilton/Verstappen.
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#272

Post by Ruslan »

caneparo wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
The fact that Mick Schumacher, with the advantage of his name, marketing value, and an F2 championship, only got to Haas is in itself a big red flag to me. I assume he has a multi-year contract with Haas.
I believe he is a Ferrari Academy / Junior driver, so his contract would be with Ferrari, albeit no doubt with a sub contract with Haas..... obviously as happened with other Ferrari Academy drivers (ie Leclerc and Gio of the current crop) they got positioned in a Ferrari customer team,Ferrari no doubt dishing out discounts on engines, transmissions and suspension parts, a few engineering staff members thrown in etc. With Haas I believe they also use / have used the Ferrari wind Tunnel and simulator when available. With Alfa this year haviing wanted to retain Kimi, and Gio finally looking half reasonable their only customer team option for Schu was with Haas. I know Ferrari have the right to put a driver of their choice in one of the Alfa seats.....obviously that is Gio, but who knows next year / in the future if Schu turns out to be any good maybe he will end up at Alfa next year at the expense of Gio, or of course if Kimi throws the towel in.. (Just throwing that in as an option, not based on anything I have read)

m sure Schumacher came with personal sponsorship, and as you say the family name that would also be to his credit. Mazespin of course is not aligned to any manufacturer but is purely a traditional style pay driver. He has a Father prepared to 'invest' tens of millions of his petty cash into his sons pastime, as was the case with Stroll and Latifi. Plus I have heard rumour that Mazein Snr. might be a future purchaser of the Haas team.
I don't quite grasp why Ferrari keeps Giovanazzi hanging on. He is not bad...but....it is clear that they are never going to draft him into a seat at Ferrari. So what is the purpose of a B team other to develop new drivers for your A team? A holding tank for people who you still kinda like?
He is Italian
And oddly enough, Ferrari rarely employs Italian drivers.
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#273

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P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
Aty wrote: 3 years ago Thank you for explaining your position on value of lower series, however I am not so certain that you have explained why you are rating Mick Schumacher as low as you do. Are you sure that it is his skills we are discussing, and nothing else? I should end here my part with "let Mick prove you wrong", but unfortunately where he is today, that would be too much to ask of him.
Well, there is more thought that has gone in my evaluation than I discussed. For example, in his second year in F2 Mick Schumacher had two wins and 3 fastest laps. What got my attention was the lack of poles. In his previous year in F2 he had one win and one fastest lap (again no poles). The second place in the championship was taken by Callum Ilott, who in his first year in F2 had 3 wins and 6 poles (no fastest laps). The third place in the championship was taken by Yuki Tsunoda, who in his first year in F2 had 3 wins, 4 poles and 3 fastest laps. These differences in performance kind of get my attention.

Looking just a little further is two Russians, Robert Shwartzman in his first year in F2 with 4 wins, 2 poles and 1 fastest laps followed by Nikita Mazepin. Mazepin also had two wins and two fastest laps in his first year in F2.

Three rookies arrived in F1 this year. My nagging suspicion is that it should have been Callum Ilott, Yuki Tsunoda (check), and Robert Shwartzman.
I think that you're making a very interesting point regarding young Schumacher: his issue is that he needs time to perform... if you check his progress in F3 it took him a year to be competitive, in F2 it seemed as if he needed time for each race week end. I wonder if this has anything to do with the weight on his shoulders. Because if he didn't have much speed he wouldn't be able to pull the fastest lap, he probably lacks confidence, but my point is that if you're good enough to set pole then you have the abilities to do the fastest lap and vice versa. The fact that he set 3 fastest laps to me means that he's got the speed, the fact that he set 3 fastest laps and no poles to me seem to imply ythat he's got speed but he struggles to be at his best from the first time that he gets in his car and needs some time to cool down a bit. When he was in F3 once he started winning he did well, I guess that he'll have a lot of pressure to perform at Haas, his problem is that he doesn't have much time, he seems to be someone who needs a bit of time to perform at his best and F1 normally doesn't work like that
It is an interesting record, as it clear that he needed a second year in F3 and F2 before he started performing. We actually see the same thing with Nikita Mazepin. Is it confidence, the training, or a lack of natural speed?

So in 2022 we should see the Haas team leading the pack? My nagging suspicion is that Haas is not spending any money this season because they are trying to sell the team off.
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#274

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
It is an interesting record, as it clear that he needed a second year in F3 and F2 before he started performing. We actually see the same thing with Nikita Mazepin. Is it confidence, the training, or a lack of natural speed?
I think that if he lacked natural speed he wouldn't be able to set some fastest laps and would get barely any win, yet he managed to win more races than Callum and Tsunoda (compared to Callum that's twice as many races won over the same period of time whereas Tsunoda has one less year which is quite significant) and beat both of them also on fastest laps (on a pro rata basis he scored more fastest laps per year than Tsunada even if we factor in the fact that Tsunada has a 5 year record compared to Mick's 6 years). So using the data that you provided we should have to assume that Mick is vastly superior in terms of racecraft to Callum and Tsunoda and is (marginally?) faster in race trim than both of them.

Having said that is any of Schumacher, Callum or Tsunoda the next Hamilton or Verstappen? I'd say no, none of them looks to be at that level, but having said that I think that Schumacher deserves his chance in F1 the same as Tsunoda and probably more than Callum. Time will tell who will develop into a better driver
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#275

Post by Ruslan »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
It is an interesting record, as it clear that he needed a second year in F3 and F2 before he started performing. We actually see the same thing with Nikita Mazepin. Is it confidence, the training, or a lack of natural speed?
I think that if he lacked natural speed he wouldn't be able to set some fastest laps and would get barely any win, yet he managed to win more races than Callum and Tsunoda (compared to Callum that's twice as many races won over the same period of time whereas Tsunoda has one less year which is quite significant) and beat both of them also on fastest laps (on a pro rata basis he scored more fastest laps per year than Tsunada even if we factor in the fact that Tsunada has a 5 year record compared to Mick's 6 years). So using the data that you provided we should have to assume that Mick is vastly superior in terms of racecraft to Callum and Tsunoda and is (marginally?) faster in race trim than both of them.

Having said that is any of Schumacher, Callum or Tsunoda the next Hamilton or Verstappen? I'd say no, none of them looks to be at that level, but having said that I think that Schumacher deserves his chance in F1 the same as Tsunoda and probably more than Callum. Time will tell who will develop into a better driver
Well, I think it is going to be a long painful season for both of the Haas drivers. Suspect we will not know much more about them at the end of the season than we do now.

I do wonder if there will be any seats available for new drivers in 2022.
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#276

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Mazepins F1 race debut was shorter than any debut since 2002.

We haven’t seen a driver retire on the first lap of their first race since the crash which wiped out eight cars at the start of the 2002 Australian Grand Prix.

Felipe Massa and Allan McNish, making their debuts that day for Sauber and Toyota r were both among those eliminated at turn one.

Since then a couple of unlucky rookies have gone out on the second lap ...... Karun Chandhok in 2010 and Andre Lotterer in 2014 but they got a full lap in first.

Two others reached the finish on their debuts but were disqualified...... Robert Kubica in 2006 (his car was underweight) and Sergio Perez in 2011 (illegal rear wing dimensions).

So Mazepin is already setting F1 records, albeit one I am sure he did not wish to have to take the 'credit' for.

Of course no where near the shortest ever debut, which from memory was Mike Thackwell in Canada back in 1980. He was at the time the youngest ever starter (he is still 5th youngest). That year Mike was driving a 3rd Tyrrell.... he started well and kept out of trouble. However others didnt with Piquet and Jones getting together just a couple of hundred metres after the start, with others running into them. Those others included both Tyrrells of Jarier and Warwick.. The race was red flagged immediately, but Mike, who avoided the carnage and made his way back to pitlane was then told that his undamaged car was to be taken over by Jumper Jarier. So Mike never made the restart.

Did he actually make a race start at that event? Well that is still argued about. The race was red flagged on the opening lap.... under the rules that meant a complete restart for the original race length was in order. ie the first one was null and void. But it happened. He made a start even if the red flag voided it, and most sources credit him the the start.

Blah blah blah......

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#277

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Someone tweeted a joke I read yesterday...

Filipe Massa was 2008 world champion longer than Nikita Mazepin's entire F1 career.


Thought it was a wee bit funny. :happy:
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#278

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago

Well, I think it is going to be a long painful season for both of the Haas drivers. Suspect we will not know much more about them at the end of the season than we do now.

I do wonder if there will be any seats available for new drivers in 2022.
yes it's going to be a long and painful season for both of them, Mick's only chance is to join Alfa soon and hope for the better, with that car and with a difficult manager like Gunther Steiner it's going to be tough
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#279

Post by Ruslan »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago

Well, I think it is going to be a long painful season for both of the Haas drivers. Suspect we will not know much more about them at the end of the season than we do now.

I do wonder if there will be any seats available for new drivers in 2022.
yes it's going to be a long and painful season for both of them, Mick's only chance is to join Alfa soon and hope for the better, with that car and with a difficult manager like Gunther Steiner it's going to be tough
Guenther Steiner was the star of first season of Drive to Survive. He is entertaining. Don't know how good of manager he is or how difficult he is.
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#280

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago

Well, I think it is going to be a long painful season for both of the Haas drivers. Suspect we will not know much more about them at the end of the season than we do now.

I do wonder if there will be any seats available for new drivers in 2022.
yes it's going to be a long and painful season for both of them, Mick's only chance is to join Alfa soon and hope for the better, with that car and with a difficult manager like Gunther Steiner it's going to be tough
Guenther Steiner was the star of first season of Drive to Survive. He is entertaining. Don't know how good of manager he is or how difficult he is.
I must confess he is a breath of fresh air to me.... quite a character and calls a spade a spade. Not sure he is a great manager but he adds to my entertainment.

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#281

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Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoAnd oddly enough, Ferrari rarely employs Italian drivers.
Coincidentally, an old friend and I (both acquaintance and ages Image) attempted to name all Ferrari drivers over breakfast 'twixt P3 and Q Saturday. We gave up Image and cheated. :smiley:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ne_drivers
Those were the days my friends, we thought they'd never end.....

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#282

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jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoAnd oddly enough, Ferrari rarely employs Italian drivers.
Coincidentally, an old friend and I (both acquaintance and ages Image) attempted to name all Ferrari drivers over breakfast 'twixt P3 and Q Saturday. We gave up Image and cheated. :smiley:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ne_drivers
Well, assuming that list is exhaustive (I have not checked to see), then I count 79 Ferrari F1 drivers. Of those, 25 are Italian (not counting Andretti) or 32%, which is higher than I expected. But then, if I ignore the 1950s, and those that raced less than season, I get a lot less. I think of the Italians drivers that won more than two races with Ferrari, there is only two (Farina and Ascari).
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#283

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoAnd oddly enough, Ferrari rarely employs Italian drivers.
Coincidentally, an old friend and I (both acquaintance and ages Image) attempted to name all Ferrari drivers over breakfast 'twixt P3 and Q Saturday. We gave up Image and cheated. :smiley:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ne_drivers
Well, assuming that list is exhaustive (I have not checked to see), then I count 79 Ferrari F1 drivers. Of those, 25 are Italian (not counting Andretti) or 32%, which is higher than I expected. But then, if I ignore the 1950s, and those that raced less than season, I get a lot less. I think of the Italians drivers that won more than two races with Ferrari, there is only two (Farina and Ascari).
I think there were a few more than that......

A list of those who have done at least one race for the Scuderia.


110 drivers GP
SCHUMACHER Michael 180
RÄIKKÖNEN Kimi 151
MASSA Felipe 139
VETTEL Sebastian 118
BARRICHELLO Rubens 102
BERGER Gerhard 96
ALONSO Fernando 96
ALBORETO Michele 80
ALESI Jean 79
REGAZZONI Clay 73
VILLENEUVE Gilles 66
IRVINE Eddie 65
LAUDA Niki 57
ICKX Jacky 55
LECLERC Charles 39
HAWTHORN Mike 35
BANDINI Lorenzo 35
REUTEMANN Carlos
ARNOUX René 32
MANSELL Nigel 31
JOHANSSON Stefan 31
PROST Alain 30
SURTEES John 30
HILL Phil 30
SCHECKTER Jody 28
ASCARI Alberto 27
AMON Chris 27
PIRONI Didier 25
von TRIPS Wolfgang 25
TAMBAY Patrick 21
COLLINS Peter 20
VILLORESI Luigi 20
FARINA Giuseppe 20
TRINTIGNANT Maurice 17
MUSSO Luigi 15
ROSIER Louis 15
GONZALEZ Jose-Froilan 15
CAPELLI Ivan 14
TARUFFI Piero 13
ANDRETTI Mario 12
CASTELLOTTI Eugenio 11
MERZARIO Arturo 11
GINTHER Richie 10
MAIRESSE Willy 10
BAGHETTI Giancarlo 8
GENDEBIEN Olivier 8
RODRIGUEZ Pedro 8
FANGIO Juan Manuel 7
WHITEHEAD Peter 7
FISCHER Rudi 7
BROOKS Tony 7
MAGLIOLI Umberto 6
SCARFIOTTI Ludovico 6
PARKES Mike 6 1
ALLISON Cliff 6
SALO Mika 6
de PORTAGO Alfonso 5
MANZON Robert 5
RODRIGUEZ Ricardo 5
SWATERS Jacques 5
FISICHELLA Giancarlo 5
LARINI Nicola 4
GIUNTI Ignazio 4
GURNEY Dan 4
HIRT Peter 4
CARINI Piero 3
FRERE Paul 3
BEHRA Jean 3
PARNELL Reg 2
BADOER Luca 2
de TORNACO Charles 2
SOMMER Raymond 2
BELL Derek 2
SIMON André 2
De ADAMICH Andrea 1
CLAES Johnny 1
COMOTTI Franco 1
LANDI Chico 1
ADOLFF Kurt 1
de TERRA Max 1
GALLI Nanni 1
De TOMASO Alessandro 1
LAURENT Roger 1
MORBIDELLI Gianni 1
SCARLATTI Giorgio 1
SALVADORI Roy 1
BONDURANT Bob 1
BIONDETTI Clemente 1
WILLIAMS Jonathan 1
SCHELL Harry 1
SAINZ Carlos 1
PERDISA Cesare 1
PILETTE André 1
SERAFINI Dorino 1
SCHOELLER Rudolf 1
VACCARELLA Nino 1

10 of them won a WDC. (Ascari Lauda and Schumacher were the only three to win more than one title with Ferrari.)
Ascari is the only Italian to have won a WDC at Ferrari.

Of those listed, 39 drivers won at least 1 GP for the team.
Alboreto, Ascari, Bandini, Musso, Baghetti Taruffi and Scarfiotti are the only 7 Italians to win a GP for Ferrari.

68 of the drivers won points (Well Gianni Morbidelli scored half a point at Adelaide in 1991)
Only 16 Ferrari points winners were Italians

There are another 14 that were entered to race for Ferrari but for various reasons didnt. (Like Tino Brambilla who broke his arm prior to Monza one year when he was entered, as a replacement for the got over Ferrari and left Chris Amon.... Tino was then replaced by Pedro Rodriguez.)

I did not class Andretti as an Italian as he raced as an American.

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#284

Post by theracer120 »

I think the discrepancy between the lists might be down to there being a few privateer Ferrari entries in the early days. Clemente Biondetti is on the list of 110 drivers and IIRC his one F1 start was in a Ferrari with a Jaguar engine.
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#285

Post by White six »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 3 years agoAnd oddly enough, Ferrari rarely employs Italian drivers.
Coincidentally, an old friend and I (both acquaintance and ages Image) attempted to name all Ferrari drivers over breakfast 'twixt P3 and Q Saturday. We gave up Image and cheated. :smiley:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ne_drivers
Well, assuming that list is exhaustive (I have not checked to see), then I count 79 Ferrari F1 drivers. Of those, 25 are Italian (not counting Andretti) or 32%, which is higher than I expected. But then, if I ignore the 1950s, and those that raced less than season, I get a lot less. I think of the Italians drivers that won more than two races with Ferrari, there is only two (Farina and Ascari).
I think there were a few more than that......

A list of those who have done at least one race for the Scuderia.


110 drivers GP
SCHUMACHER Michael 180
RÄIKKÖNEN Kimi 151
MASSA Felipe 139
VETTEL Sebastian 118
BARRICHELLO Rubens 102
BERGER Gerhard 96
ALONSO Fernando 96
ALBORETO Michele 80
ALESI Jean 79
REGAZZONI Clay 73
VILLENEUVE Gilles 66
IRVINE Eddie 65
LAUDA Niki 57
ICKX Jacky 55
LECLERC Charles 39
HAWTHORN Mike 35
BANDINI Lorenzo 35
REUTEMANN Carlos
ARNOUX René 32
MANSELL Nigel 31
JOHANSSON Stefan 31
PROST Alain 30
SURTEES John 30
HILL Phil 30
SCHECKTER Jody 28
ASCARI Alberto 27
AMON Chris 27
PIRONI Didier 25
von TRIPS Wolfgang 25
TAMBAY Patrick 21
COLLINS Peter 20
VILLORESI Luigi 20
FARINA Giuseppe 20
TRINTIGNANT Maurice 17
MUSSO Luigi 15
ROSIER Louis 15
GONZALEZ Jose-Froilan 15
CAPELLI Ivan 14
TARUFFI Piero 13
ANDRETTI Mario 12
CASTELLOTTI Eugenio 11
MERZARIO Arturo 11
GINTHER Richie 10
MAIRESSE Willy 10
BAGHETTI Giancarlo 8
GENDEBIEN Olivier 8
RODRIGUEZ Pedro 8
FANGIO Juan Manuel 7
WHITEHEAD Peter 7
FISCHER Rudi 7
BROOKS Tony 7
MAGLIOLI Umberto 6
SCARFIOTTI Ludovico 6
PARKES Mike 6 1
ALLISON Cliff 6
SALO Mika 6
de PORTAGO Alfonso 5
MANZON Robert 5
RODRIGUEZ Ricardo 5
SWATERS Jacques 5
FISICHELLA Giancarlo 5
LARINI Nicola 4
GIUNTI Ignazio 4
GURNEY Dan 4
HIRT Peter 4
CARINI Piero 3
FRERE Paul 3
BEHRA Jean 3
PARNELL Reg 2
BADOER Luca 2
de TORNACO Charles 2
SOMMER Raymond 2
BELL Derek 2
SIMON André 2
De ADAMICH Andrea 1
CLAES Johnny 1
COMOTTI Franco 1
LANDI Chico 1
ADOLFF Kurt 1
de TERRA Max 1
GALLI Nanni 1
De TOMASO Alessandro 1
LAURENT Roger 1
MORBIDELLI Gianni 1
SCARLATTI Giorgio 1
SALVADORI Roy 1
BONDURANT Bob 1
BIONDETTI Clemente 1
WILLIAMS Jonathan 1
SCHELL Harry 1
SAINZ Carlos 1
PERDISA Cesare 1
PILETTE André 1
SERAFINI Dorino 1
SCHOELLER Rudolf 1
VACCARELLA Nino 1

10 of them won a WDC. (Ascari Lauda and Schumacher were the only three to win more than one title with Ferrari.)
Ascari is the only Italian to have won a WDC at Ferrari.

Of those listed, 39 drivers won at least 1 GP for the team.
Alboreto, Ascari, Bandini, Musso, Baghetti Taruffi and Scarfiotti are the only 7 Italians to win a GP for Ferrari.

68 of the drivers won points (Well Gianni Morbidelli scored half a point at Adelaide in 1991)
Only 16 Ferrari points winners were Italians

There are another 14 that were entered to race for Ferrari but for various reasons didnt. (Like Tino Brambilla who broke his arm prior to Monza one year when he was entered, as a replacement for the got over Ferrari and left Chris Amon.... Tino was then replaced by Pedro Rodriguez.)

I did not class Andretti as an Italian as he raced as an American.
Curiously Croatia could claim Andretti as their only world champion.
The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
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#286

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

White six wrote: 3 years ago
Curiously Croatia could claim Andretti as their only world champion.
I doubt that he would be very pleased to be considered "Croatian". My understanding is that he considers himself American (born in Italy, from Italian parents, he lived in Italy until he was 15)
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