Sprint races approved and happening in 2021. Balls.

[PTRACER]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Still think the idea is a cynical cash grab and nothing else.

It was a good 'race' (if that's what it's called). And I think having extra points available makes it more likely to get people to race (there is something on the line that way - unlike just for the top 3).

But between extra sprint races, extra race weekends, it's just too much to follow.

8 points is a huge number for someone to take on the account of 21 laps on a Friday though. And it seems like I was the only one able to watch it live because it was late at night here and I didn't have work/family duties stopping me from watching.

I don't know, I hope the idea will die out by the end of this season.

Oh I didn't mean to advocate for more points. I meant having points down to P8 compared to P3 last year.

Sorry I was making a separate point entirely You are dead right, there's more incentive to fight for positions 4-8 now. I didn't see much action happening further down the field, I think that's the real drawback of this format.

[MonteCristo]

F1 tried for 6 sprint races.

FIA said no. For now.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ext-season

Formula One has attempted to forge ahead with its intent to increase the number of sprint races next season but their efforts have been prevented for the moment by the sport’s governing body, the FIA. At a meeting of the F1 Commission in London on Tuesday there was also no concrete decision regarding whether the budget cap would be increased this year.

The F1 commission consists of representatives of F1’s owners – Formula One management, the FIA and the teams. F1 and the teams supported increasing the number of sprint race weekends to be held from the three this year to six next year, with FOM believing the format to be very successful.

However, the FIA has insisted it will not back the plan until it has carried out an evaluation of the impact of the proposal on its trackside operations and personnel. The FIA will then report back to the commission and once more consider the proposal. Reports have suggested the FIA was seeking to receive greater financial redress from F1 in return for agreeing to increase the sprint races.

[XcraigX]

F1 tried for 6 sprint races.

FIA said no. For now.

[Aty]

Who is actually pushing those sprint races? Must be Brown and Liberty (Americans). Initially teams hesitated and would have gladly dropped whole thing. Now when they said OK, let's try, it is suddenly FiA who is slowing things down. (Having suspicious mind, I think it is more about money for FiA coffers, then anything else.) I am just hoping that reliability engineering has the thing figured out, and all on low budget. Like many in here, I can go on with my life without a single sprint race on Saturday, however I want some changes on the existing qualification system. A driver having a single lap to make him or break him in Q1 or Q2 seem unhealthy for my liking.

[erwin greven]

There is no need for changing the qualification at all. This system is imho the best. Smaller teams get air play. And there is action from min 1 till the last second.

[Aty]

There is no need for changing the qualification at all. This system is imho the best. Smaller teams get air play. And there is action from min 1 till the last second.

I think I see the same issue differently. Driver needs time to log his best. My feelings aren't hurt if there are pauses when track is deserted, and then there is sudden rush, and expectations...will he, or will he not? (Michael vs Mika Häkkinen.) I miss those moments, when it took 1 hr and 1.5 minute to know...

I am getting tired of FiA's shoddy habits when they are trying mask bad car designs and unfinished development by interjecting into the system DRS, forcing lottery type of qualifications etc. How many times drivers had just one hot lap, and lost others due to red flag, or was blocked by someone? I don't derive pleasure of seeing a driver in far back position for causes beyond his control. Drivers (and teams) do need several clean hot laps to find their proper place on the grid. Current system (IMO) is not accommodating for that.

[erwin greven]

I think I see the same issue differently. Driver needs time to log his best. My feelings aren't hurt if there are pauses when track is deserted, and then there is sudden rush, and expectations...will he, or will he not? (Michael vs Mika Häkkinen.) I miss those moments, when it took 1 hr and 1.5 minute to know...

I see no change of that in today's qualification. It takes still 1 hour and 1,5 min to know.
What does hurt is waiting for 25 min before a car hits the track, because it rained before or even still while the qualification started. Mostly it were the Minardi's, the Pacific's, Forti's, you name them... And some 15 min before the end the faster cars went on the track.

I am getting tired of FiA's shoddy habits when they are trying mask bad car designs and unfinished development by interjecting into the system DRS, forcing lottery type of qualifications etc. How many times drivers had just one hot lap, and lost others due to red flag, or was blocked by someone?

Yes. the FIA sucks. Those @%*&#^&(#W&#!)@#&$ bastards...

Would it change when going back to the 1 hour qualification? Don't think so. Bad designs stay bad designs. But i don't think todays car design, basically is that bad. We had good races until now. And they are already talking about maybe getting rid of the DRS. Maybe that is also the reason it took so long the DRS was available at Imola. To look if the racing would be good already with slicks and without the DRS.
And about the red flag: bad luck. Very simple. The time stops. Try again. Blocked? That will happen in the old system too. And tbh, it happens very rarely and it can be punished by the stewards.

I don't derive pleasure of seeing a driver in far back position for causes beyond his control. Drivers (and teams) do need several clean hot laps to find their proper place on the grid. Current system (IMO) is not accommodating for that.

Again: bad luck. Its your team to send you out at the right time. They now have trackers. I always chuckle when someone says, he has problems with traffic. Sorry, laddie, then go on the track earlier. They were called once the best drivers on the planet... Then SHOW IT!!!!

[Aty]

Oh well, life is full of differing views. I am basically OK with that (what else I could do about it), without surrendering.
Happy racing, Erwin.
Cheers.

[Vassago]

Yeah, people forget how the old qualifying sessions worked. If it rained on Saturday everyone knew the Friday times would stood and nobody would give a damn about getting out. Who remembers how Barrichello scored his maiden pole at Spa 1994? Jordan gambled on slicks on a damp track late on Friday and others couldn't counter before the flag. Then heavy rain fell on Saturday and it was game over. The end result was a good storyline but it was a terrible product to have the entire Q2 rained out. It would be borderline criminal to have it in the short span society of today. 60 minutes of no action? Hell no!

[erwin greven]

Yeah, people forget how the old qualifying sessions worked. If it rained on Saturday everyone knew the Friday times would stood and nobody would give a damn about getting out. Who remembers how Barrichello scored his maiden pole at Spa 1994? Jordan gambled on slicks on a damp track late on Friday and others couldn't counter before the flag. Then heavy rain fell on Saturday and it was game over. The end result was a good storyline but it was a terrible product to have the entire Q2 rained out. It would be borderline criminal to have it in the short span society of today. 60 minutes of no action? Hell no!

I've seen many qualification formats. The one we have now it imho the best one (or least bad one).

[XcraigX]

Yep!

[MonteCristo]

I prefer the old 2-day qualifying most, followed by the all-in one hour session. It's the fairest, most sporting overall.

But this craps all over the one lap crap (or two laps aggregate, whatever); and that elimination BS.

It's not ideal IMO, but it strikes a fine enough balance that I don't get in a twist over it.

[Vassago]

Yeah, the current format is actually the best. No complains about old school being better for qualifying. Obviously the two sessions format had 12 laps limit and at some tracks drivers did two hot laps in a row which limited their runs to three per session (and one was a safe run like the first jump in long jump or whatever). I still remember how Eurosport commentators counted how many laps a driver completed and if someone had 10 then he was ineligible to use the last two since it would bring his total to 13. Fast forward 30 years and that really looks stupid.

Monaco was actually one track where things went off script since some drivers went out early to set a time on a not-rubbered track and avoided the usual traffic jam possible at street track.

[Everso Biggyballies]

Yeah, people forget how the old qualifying sessions worked. If it rained on Saturday everyone knew the Friday times would stood and nobody would give a damn about getting out. Who remembers how Barrichello scored his maiden pole at Spa 1994? Jordan gambled on slicks on a damp track late on Friday and others couldn't counter before the flag. Then heavy rain fell on Saturday and it was game over. The end result was a good storyline but it was a terrible product to have the entire Q2 rained out. It would be borderline criminal to have it in the short span society of today. 60 minutes of no action? Hell no!

Another Yep and approval from me

[Everso Biggyballies]

Who remembers qualy for the 2005 AGP? In the days when they did individual laps one at a time. It started wet, dried very quickly then poured with rain again. Fisi just happened to completely fluke the timing and had a lap in sunshine and the ideal conditions as the rain came on his inlap. Pole by 2 seconds I think it was and the field covered by 'many' seconds. They also had qualy in 2 parts on the Saturday and Sunday then..... with times aggregated over both sessions. One bad lap over two days screwed you completely.

It was a bloody farce anyway.

This is part of that day where Fisi's turn came up. Couldnt have timed it better. Oh and he went on to convert pole to a win the next day.




How Grandprix.com explained the day

They say that Formula 1 teams will invest in anything that will give them an advantage in a race. In 2005 the unfair advantage will come from the weather. Thus the best possible weapon in the F1 battle at the moment is a rain-making device employed on a Saturday just after a team's car has run in qualifying. Do not be surprised to see teams sending up helicopters and dropping mercury particles into the atmosphere (or whatever). Building a good racing car is still important of course, but even good racing cars cannot overcome the weather with the current rule format. Minardi is attacking the way the rules are made so the only option for the other teams is to investigate rain-making devices.

Many races in the modern era have been settled at the first corner but it is probably fair to say that the 2005 Australian Grand Prix was settled by the first qualifying session. And the result of this session was dictated by two things: the weather and the new qualifying rules. When qualifying began the track was wet but drying and so that meant that the men at the end of the session would inevitably be going faster than those at the beginning - at least in theory. And then the whole thing was skewed by the fact that it rained suddenly in the middle of the session, just after Giancarlo Fisichella had set the fastest time. Felipe Massa was the man who took the brunt of the pain. He was out on grooved slicks when the torrential downpour began and could barely keep the car on the road. Those who followed him were at least able to use wet or even extreme weather tyres and so had a slightly better chance but had no hope of challenging those who had run at the right moment in the session. The man for whom things worked out best happened to be in the best car and that meant that Giancarlo Fisichella was on pole with a bunch of slow cars protecting him from the other fast men. In previous qualifying systems used in F1 the intervention of the weather used to be off-set by the fact that drivers usually had the opportunity to salvage the situation but with aggregated timing there is no chance of doing anything. You cannot make up a gap of five or six seconds if everyone is running in similar conditions. And as the grid sets the pattern of the race these days and overtaking is so hard, it is fair to say that the race was decided when the rain began to fall on Saturday afternoon. The qualifying on Sunday morning was so confusing that even those to whom the system had been explained were lost. Perhaps they will learn to understand the system better but even then explaining it all to the public will not be easy. Or let us put it another way: this is crap.

David Coulthard, a man who is currently delighting in being allowed to speak his mind after nearly 10 years being told what to say as a McLaren driver voiced it well.

"Poor Massa had to go out on slick tyres and it rained," he said. "For him not to have an opportunity to have another go is, to my mind, ludicrous. I was lucky with the weather. There is no skill involved in when your slot comes up. This is supposed to be a technical challenge, a driver challenge. Doing it this way, you may as well have pulled grid positions from a hat. That's not competition. I think it's shit. It's not what the sport stands for."

Many people might say that the political battle in qualifying between Minardi and the FIA has nothing to do with the racing but the reality is that it does. The making of decisions is what is at stake in that dispute and bad decisions are being made. You can argue that it is not the FIA and that the teams are also responsible but, frankly, it really does not matter who is screwing it all up. It is the system that is at fault and the system must change if the sport is to save itself before the TV viewers across the world turn off and go and play golf. The one saving grace at the moment is that the sport is inherently spectacular and is keeping itself alive with noise and colour.

One might argue that the ridiculous qualifying would not have been as ridiculous if the weather had been different and the Sunday morning qualifying session had had more relevance but even then no-one, not even the drivers involved, knew what was going on. There were just numbers coming up on screens. Giancarlo Fisichella went before the international press corps believing that he had been fastest in the session and seemed surprised when told that this was not the case.

Perhaps it is wise to wait a race or two just to see the situation in more normal circumstances but the way things are now, qualifying will be dictating far too much about the races. Michael Schumacher has spent the last decade and more winning championships and showing himself to be capable of great feats, often in cars which were inferior to others. But in Melbourne he and the likes of Kimi Raikkonen and Mark Webber were obviously held back by inferior cars. The only man who had the car with a big enough advantage to overtake was Fernando Alonso. Rubens Barrichello's Ferrari was fast enough to gain places by good strategy but with Fisichella on pole there was never a hope that anyone else would win. He drove cautiously to avoid a mistake and he won. It was nice to see and popular in the paddock - but was it great sport?

https://www.grandprix.com/races/australian-gp-2005.html

[MonteCristo]

I attended the AGP the year of the aggregate qualifying.

It was awful to watch as an in-person spectator. Barely better on TV.