Driving the Red Bull

[Aty]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Does anyone know what is excluded from said budgetary restrictions? I am not sure if perhaps the answer would be shorter to ask what is actually included in that budget? Surely the answer is not "everything" is included. There is obvious massive disparity in operational budget between genuine engine maker such as Alpine is, RBR with the gift from Honda, and perhaps McLaren as an engine customer. Each team inevitably has its own unique operational approach, and beats me how one budget baseline can resolve equitably perceived differences.

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

Yep, I'm back after the winter break! I'm back and keeping my fingers crossed for a half decent show this season

It might be. On the other hand, I suspect this is a building season for 2022, the first time they will have to design cars under a budget cap.

I don't think that 2022 will bring a revolution because of the budget cap, each team will build his 2022 challenge upon what they already have. So I expect a very good car from RBR, a very good engine from Mercedes, etc, I don't think that introducing the budget cap will result in a level playing field. In fairness I'm not even 100% sure that the budget cap will work, I fear that they will find some ways around it. IMHO a reduction in budgets will only be possible because F1 is a vert dubious investment nowadays especially for sponsors and the global economy doesn't seem to be great at the moment. If you add to that the fact that F1 is a sport followed mostly by middle aged men its prospects don't look good. On the other hand when money dries out we could see some real change and maybe the rebirth of F1. the fact that most of us already guess who will be the WDC this season speaks volumes about the sort of issues that F1 is facing.

Anyway I'm positive for the middle to long term, things cannot be as bad as they are now

[Everso Biggyballies]

It might be. On the other hand, I suspect this is a building season for 2022, the first time they will have to design cars under a budget cap.

I don't think that 2022 will bring a revolution because of the budget cap, each team will build his 2022 challenge upon what they already have. So I expect a very good car from RBR, a very good engine from Mercedes, etc, I don't think that introducing the budget cap will result in a level playing field. In fairness I'm not even 100% sure that the budget cap will work, I fear that they will find some ways around it. IMHO a reduction in budgets will only be possible because F1 is a vert dubious investment nowadays especially for sponsors and the global economy doesn't seem to be great at the moment. If you add to that the fact that F1 is a sport followed mostly by middle aged men its prospects don't look good. On the other hand when money dries out we could see some real change and maybe the rebirth of F1. the fact that most of us already guess who will be the WDC this season speaks volumes about the sort of issues that F1 is facing.

Anyway I'm positive for the middle to long term, things cannot be as bad as they are now

I think we already have seen how the larger teams will get around it.... just by reassigning many of their staff to different departments within their respective manufacturing group. My understanding is initially the cap will not include driver salaries / retainers and other top earners in the teams (ie the Newey's and Principals.)

It is aimed at expenditure that relates to car performance. It excludes all marketing costs, race driver fees/salaries and the costs of the team’s three highest paid personnel.

Further changes have been made since the idea was floated, such as excluding salary costs for staff on maternity and paternity leave as well as sick leave, plus the costs of medical benefits provided to team employees. This is to ensure teams are not motivated to cut costs in these areas to stay within the cap. Also in this sector are redundancy payments for those retrenched.

This year the cap 'should' be not too daunting given the use of 2020 chassis.

[SBan83]

Vettel loves a car that rotates when it is still in the corner, but when throttle is applied its rear should stick (there is the blown diffuser again!!). Look at the spots he mostly spun. Exit at relative low speed corners.

This is what I read too in many articles. Those who've raced or even sim-raced know how tempting it is to set up a car to rotate beautifully mid-corner but then the tradeoff is that it's harder to put the power down on corner exit while still straightening the car out. Particularly once the rear tyres heat up as the stint goes on. With the blown diffuser, the last part was made very easy and Vettel could plant the throttle on exit, enjoying the best of both worlds, so to speak. With the BD gone, he's been struggling since.

[DoubleFart]

What's strange is that Vettel was clearly a quick racer the moment he stepped into the BMW, and then the Toro Rosso.


Why his pace would fall away over 2014-2020 and unforced errors would increase compared to pre-BD is very odd - the only thing different now is the Torque on exit with the more instantly available electricity boost, and I can't believe a Formula 1 driver can't cope with a different throttle application.

[erwin greven]

I think that the blown diffuser caused him to race at his natural racing style. Without it, he had to change his style. Which he managed to some extent, but the last bits he never quite got that to work. And when put under pressure, the so called 1v1 battles, he could "forget" to adapt and switched back to his natural style, which immediately caused him to spin. Most spins were when he battled with others. Monza, Bahrain...

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

Vettel loves a car that rotates when it is still in the corner, but when throttle is applied its rear should stick (there is the blown diffuser again!!). Look at the spots he mostly spun. Exit at relative low speed corners.

This is what I read too in many articles. Those who've raced or even sim-raced know how tempting it is to set up a car to rotate beautifully mid-corner but then the tradeoff is that it's harder to put the power down on corner exit while still straightening the car out. Particularly once the rear tyres heat up as the stint goes on. With the blown diffuser, the last part was made very easy and Vettel could plant the throttle on exit, enjoying the best of both worlds, so to speak. With the BD gone, he's been struggling since.

I don't agree that it's harder to put down the power on exit, rotation is used for the purpose of helping the car to travel in a straight line earlier than using the more conventional lines, rotation is not used just to make the car turn it's a totally different line as well. I don't know what your experience of setting up a racing car is, but when you take advantage of rotation you follow a totally different line, more similar to that of a motorbike, and so you're on the engine much earlier than the guys using the "traditional" (ie. "ideal") technique. The point in setting up a car to rotate properly is that it needs to be very balanced, having a grippy front end is not enough, I think that what you're referring to is a car with a lot of mid-corner oversteer but that is not what people call rotation. There are several videos of Verstappen using rotation to the full and you'll see that the advantage that he gains is that he's on the engine much earlier than the others, in a sense rotation is used to achieve a better exit speed from corners. I think that the blown diffuser was not the point re rotation

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1_UK2TmgdM[/youtube]

[Ruslan]

Yep, I'm back after the winter break! I'm back and keeping my fingers crossed for a half decent show this season

It might be. On the other hand, I suspect this is a building season for 2022, the first time they will have to design cars under a budget cap.

I don't think that 2022 will bring a revolution because of the budget cap, each team will build his 2022 challenge upon what they already have. So I expect a very good car from RBR, a very good engine from Mercedes, etc, I don't think that introducing the budget cap will result in a level playing field. In fairness I'm not even 100% sure that the budget cap will work, I fear that they will find some ways around it. IMHO a reduction in budgets will only be possible because F1 is a vert dubious investment nowadays especially for sponsors and the global economy doesn't seem to be great at the moment. If you add to that the fact that F1 is a sport followed mostly by middle aged men its prospects don't look good. On the other hand when money dries out we could see some real change and maybe the rebirth of F1. the fact that most of us already guess who will be the WDC this season speaks volumes about the sort of issues that F1 is facing.

Anyway I'm positive for the middle to long term, things cannot be as bad as they are now

Well, I don't expect of "revolution" because of the budget cap, but I do think things will evolve. Clearly Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have an advantage going into 2021 because they had unrestricted budgets in 2020 (unlike the other 7 teams which were not even spending up to the budget cap limit). Obviously, the teams with more money in 2020 will still have some advantage going forward into 2022. They also, I assume, have more infrastructure.

I am sure there will be issues with the budget cap on the margins, but cheating a little on the $$$ does not yield the same advantage as cheating on the engineering (i.e. fuel flow). In fact it takes a big cheat on the $$$ to get any advantage, which means it will probably get discovered. By it nature, it leaves a paper trail.

[Ruslan]

Does anyone know what is excluded from said budgetary restrictions? I am not sure if perhaps the answer would be shorter to ask what is actually included in that budget? Surely the answer is not "everything" is included. There is obvious massive disparity in operational budget between genuine engine maker such as Alpine is, RBR with the gift from Honda, and perhaps McLaren as an engine customer. Each team inevitably has its own unique operational approach, and beats me how one budget baseline can resolve equitably perceived differences.

I forget the specifics, but the budget cap applies only to the cars, not the engines. They also exclude the pay of the drivers, the top three principals of the team, and marketing and advertising costs.

[Ruslan]

What's strange is that Vettel was clearly a quick racer the moment he stepped into the BMW, and then the Toro Rosso.


Why his pace would fall away over 2014-2020 and unforced errors would increase compared to pre-BD is very odd - the only thing different now is the Torque on exit with the more instantly available electricity boost, and I can't believe a Formula 1 driver can't cope with a different throttle application.

Did Vettel's unforced errors actually increase? I remember he made a lot of them from 2010-2013. Has anyone assembled a list of errors over the years?

[Aty]

Does anyone know what is excluded from said budgetary restrictions? I am not sure if perhaps the answer would be shorter to ask what is actually included in that budget? Surely the answer is not "everything" is included. There is obvious massive disparity in operational budget between genuine engine maker such as Alpine is, RBR with the gift from Honda, and perhaps McLaren as an engine customer. Each team inevitably has its own unique operational approach, and beats me how one budget baseline can resolve equitably perceived differences.

I forget the specifics, but the budget cap applies only to the cars, not the engines. They also exclude the pay of the drivers, the top three principals of the team, and marketing and advertising costs.

A car built on budget seems still somewhat vague to me. Are testing aids (wind-tunnel, and others like simulator) included? Computer hours the same question. How does that works? People with Ph.D. in computational mechanics will have their salary counted, or it is just vaguely defined hours on a computer of certain make and capability? What about hours spend on engine integration; in or out of the budget?

I do not expect that you will have all answers, but my point is, this to be fair and without ambiguity, it has to be itemised to certain depth, and to be frank, I doubt Brawn was bothered with details of that kind. BTW, I am not really an expert on the subject, but someone in the family is, and it's my understanding that supercomputers are not sold just to anyone, and it could be some teams will operate with superior tools, giving them advantage. This begs a question then - what will be accomplished with financial regulations of this kind?

[Ruslan]

Does anyone know what is excluded from said budgetary restrictions? I am not sure if perhaps the answer would be shorter to ask what is actually included in that budget? Surely the answer is not "everything" is included. There is obvious massive disparity in operational budget between genuine engine maker such as Alpine is, RBR with the gift from Honda, and perhaps McLaren as an engine customer. Each team inevitably has its own unique operational approach, and beats me how one budget baseline can resolve equitably perceived differences.

I forget the specifics, but the budget cap applies only to the cars, not the engines. They also exclude the pay of the drivers, the top three principals of the team, and marketing and advertising costs.

A car built on budget seems still somewhat vague to me. Are testing aids (wind-tunnel, and others like simulator) included? Computer hours the same question. How does that works? People with Ph.D. in computational mechanics will have their salary counted, or it is just vaguely defined hours on a computer of certain make and capability? What about hours spend on engine integration; in or out of the budget?

I do not expect that you will have all answers, but my point is, this to be fair and without ambiguity, it has to be itemised to certain depth, and to be frank, I doubt Brawn was bothered with details of that kind. BTW, I am not really an expert on the subject, but someone in the family is, and it's my understanding that supercomputers are not sold just to anyone, and it could be some teams will operate with superior tools, giving them advantage. This begs a question then - what will be accomplished with financial regulations of this kind?

Don't know the specifics of the accounting arrangements, but I am one of the guys who thinks it is about time. They were supposed to put these rules in place 6 or 7 years ago and F1 would have been better served if they had. But Bernie Ecclestone, in one his later acts of managerial malfeasance, managed to scupper them. The attempts to establish a budget cap pre-dates Ross Brawn's involvement in FIA. It was Jean Todt, former principal at Ferrari, who got it established.

Anyhow, I have had many debates on various boards with people who strongly objected to them. Now that we have them, probably time to stop arguing about it and see how they work. This is the first year they are in place.

[Aty]

Does anyone know what is excluded from said budgetary restrictions? I am not sure if perhaps the answer would be shorter to ask what is actually included in that budget? Surely the answer is not "everything" is included. There is obvious massive disparity in operational budget between genuine engine maker such as Alpine is, RBR with the gift from Honda, and perhaps McLaren as an engine customer. Each team inevitably has its own unique operational approach, and beats me how one budget baseline can resolve equitably perceived differences.

I forget the specifics, but the budget cap applies only to the cars, not the engines. They also exclude the pay of the drivers, the top three principals of the team, and marketing and advertising costs.

A car built on budget seems still somewhat vague to me. Are testing aids (wind-tunnel, and others like simulator) included? Computer hours the same question. How does that works? People with Ph.D. in computational mechanics will have their salary counted, or it is just vaguely defined hours on a computer of certain make and capability? What about hours spend on engine integration; in or out of the budget?

I do not expect that you will have all answers, but my point is, this to be fair and without ambiguity, it has to be itemised to certain depth, and to be frank, I doubt Brawn was bothered with details of that kind. BTW, I am not really an expert on the subject, but someone in the family is, and it's my understanding that supercomputers are not sold just to anyone, and it could be some teams will operate with superior tools, giving them advantage. This begs a question then - what will be accomplished with financial regulations of this kind?

Don't know the specifics of the accounting arrangements, but I am one of the guys who thinks it is about time. They were supposed to put these rules in place 6 or 7 years ago and F1 would have been better served if they had. But Bernie Ecclestone, in one his later acts of managerial malfeasance, managed to scupper them. The attempts to establish a budget cap pre-dates Ross Brawn's involvement in FIA. It was Jean Todt, former principal at Ferrari, who got it established.

Anyhow, I have had many debates on various boards with people who strongly objected to them. Now that we have them, probably time to stop arguing about it and see how they work. This is the first year they are in place.

I understand reasons for efforts to bring cost down. In my mind it should have been however done correctly, and a lot of unanswered questions remain about that for much is hidden out of public sight.
Lastly (at least for today), when in a Century of GP in Europe racing teams had to work to the same budgets? Concept is unproven.
The lustre of this series was always aura of uniqueness, full of excesses, noise, beautiful girls, and hot blooded young men. Game for rich and famous. People who couldn't afford it stayed away or simply closed the door and that was that.

It is suddenly being turned into bland of one-cookie-like-the-other. Will that work? Telling people these are fastest cars under heaven, and using only 100 kg of fuel per race is perhaps something to brag about, but will that work in terms of pulling new people in? I seriously doubt it. (I am sorry if I sound slightly anti; I am not against progress, but this is not it IMHO).

[Ruslan]

Concept is unproven.

Actually, a number of professional sport series in the U.S. (ball or puck sports) have budget caps. So I think it is a proven concept. It does create closer competition in the long run.

The lustre of this series was always aura of uniqueness, full of excesses, noise, beautiful girls, and hot blooded young men. Game for rich and famous. People who couldn't afford it stayed away or simply closed the door and that was that.

Yes and no. Guys working out of garages, using pay phones, could build a team back in the old days. Now, guys who sell slightly fizzy drinks build teams. It has gone from a series that favored the rich, to one that is dominated by billionaires. It has changed.

It is suddenly being turned into bland of one-cookie-like-the-other. Will that work?

Well, in my concept of a budget cap (which may be different than what FIA is doing), you are actually allowed to free up the regulations and controls because everyone is budget capped and are nominally equal. It is no longer a case where the big three are going to dominate no matter what you do.

Telling people these are fastest cars under heaven, and using only 100 kg of fuel per race is perhaps something to brag about, but will that work in terms of pulling new people in?

I don't know, have you talked to the new people?

Fact of the matter is that we are living in a changing world, where in 20+ years normally asperated engines will be in a minority. In 20+ years, most people may not even be driving their own cars, a computer will do it. So what will motor racing be like when we are clearly at the beginning of a transportation revolution?

[Aty]

Concept is unproven.

Actually, a number of professional sport series in the U.S. (ball or puck sports) have budget caps. So I think it is a proven concept. It does create closer competition in the long run.

These are not technology related sports. There is massive difference between simple head count and operating complex system F1 is, IMO.

Well, in my concept of a budget cap (which may be different than what FIA is doing), you are actually allowed to free up the regulations and controls because everyone is budget capped and are nominally equal. It is no longer a case where the big three are going to dominate no matter what you do.

I don't see any signs on part of FiA or Liberty to let go of stronghold they have on the sport specs. My prediction - control freaks, and power hungry individuals will simply continue as they are.

Well, I might just end this here. I simply don't believe that mandated budget control is a proper tool towards more appealing sport. As a general rule I think FiA should not be imposing laws which they cannot properly police it. There is actually more organic way how to cut cost and improve competetivness without needing to deploy hordes of accountants. Why not adopt it? Is it too simple for the bloated F1 mind to issue simple tech specs?

[Ruslan]

There is actually more organic way how to cut cost and improve competetivness without needing to deploy hordes of accountants. Why not adopt it? Is it too simple for the bloated F1 mind to issue simple tech specs?

So what is that way?