Red Bull - .... Red Bull ? / an engine story

[Ruslan]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Will f1 still exist in 2022?

Yes. The more interesting question is will Formula One exist in 2060?

In the best option I will be 80 yo then. Not sure if f1 would mind me much

Prime target market for Bernie....as long as you have the $$$ to buy a Rolex.

[PTRACER]

Honda's lack of commitment really annoys me. They are like a friend who offers to help with *anything*, does so for a few weeks then suddenly decides not to anymore for no reason. It makes no sense.

I suspect engine wars will be the main talking point of this decade. Honda have pulled the plug, if Renault decides to as well, then the teams will all be seriously limited for choice. They will either need to simplify engine designs again soon or a team like Mercedes will have to supply engines for most of the field.

[DoubleFart]

As I called it on launch day, Red Bull making their own engines is the most realistic option.

A large hurdle has been removed, as an engine freeze has apparently been agreed. Red Bull needed this in order to make the engine cost effective to run.

[Ruslan]

Well, it is an interesting option. Now the question is this a one-of or are they actually going to develop a proper engine program so they can then develop their own engine in 2025?

[Everso Biggyballies]

Well, it is an interesting option. Now the question is this a one-of or are they actually going to develop a proper engine program so they can then develop their own engine in 2025?

Engine Freeze confirmed by the FIA
Well, the freeze that initially was not going to happen because Toto said no, has now been confirmed as happening, so the short term Red Bull to continue with Honda scenario seems to be on again.. ...Thursday’s Formula 1 Commission meeting voted unanimously to freeze power units for three years from 2022 until the end of 2024, the finer points about the timing and technicalities of the freeze have yet to emerge. So that i stage 1 ok as far as Red Bull are concerned in terms of tking over the Honda project..

Marko has outlined the Red Bull plan and vision for the future. It seems that they have an altogether new plan again for the period after the engine freeze is over and the new engine regs are established. The on and off again rumour of Porsche / VAG being involved in a branding exercise is being bandied around again. Here is the info divulged by rent-a-gob Marko.

It all sounds great on paper.... just have to see what reality unfolds with it all in the real world.

Following an interview conducted by associate F1 media outlet Motorsport Magazin with Red Bull F1 adviser Dr Helmut Marko, RaceFans can disclose that Red Bull executives plan to register a new company, which will formally acquire Honda’s F1 engine programme and support the energy drink company’s two F1 teams from Milton Keynes.

“That entity will be Red Bull Powertrains,” Marko told the German publication. “Building Eight, one of our existing buildings, is being adapted into an engine shop. Everything is happening, now it’s starting.”
Although Honda currently runs its F1 operation from a base in Milton Keynes, Marko explained this is geared towards hybrid drive technologies rather than Honda’s internal combustion engines, which are developed and serviced by its Research and Development facility in Sakura, Japan.

Thus, Red Bull will establish its own support operation on the Red Bull Technology Campus to optimise and service the engines during the three-year period. Austrian specialist powertrain company AVL, which has worked closely with Red Bull on various projects, has been contracted to support the programme and supply the necessary hardware.

“The excavators can now start rolling,” said Marko.

He believes the in-house programme will cost the same or slightly more than a customer deal over the three-year period. “We do some maths and calculations about the costs,” he said, “It is a one-time investment in the building and, above all, in test benches.

But the operating costs will not be higher than if we had bought an engine elsewhere. It may cost more, but not significantly so.”
During the final seasons of Red Bull’s partnership with Renault the watch company TAG Heuer held the naming rights to the power unit and had its brand emblazoned across the engine cover, which Marko hopes could be a precedent.

“Of course, [the sponsor] could not be another car manufacturer, but it could be some other interested company.”

The former F1 driver believes the engine programme will provide significant performance benefits by being tailored specifically for the Red Bull and AlphaTauri chassis – which have both draw common components, as permitted by the regulations, from Red Bull Technology.

“We will be supplying an engine that is coordinated with the chassis people, which will be optimised on both sides,” he said. “If we had got an engine from Renault, for example, we would be forced to [compromise] our chassis, radiator and other components around that design.”

Red Bull will continue to receive full Honda support in 2021. The Japanese manufacturer has also pledged to develop their power unit through to the end of their tenure despite no updates being permitted during the current season. Thus Red Bull hopes to go into the homologation period in early 2022 – final details still to be formalised by the FIA – with an engine that has been fully developed.
“[This freeze] is good news not only for us, but for the whole of Formula 1 in general,” believes Marko. “It reduces costs considerably.”

He also said that Red Bull is hopeful of acquiring full works status from 2025 by enticing another manufacturer into the sport. According to sources an entry by Porsche was widely discussed during today’s commission meeting.

The German company has attended a number of engine working group sessions recently, and parent company VW has historically enjoyed close motorsport links with Red Bull.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/12/fir ... s-in-2025/

[Everso Biggyballies]

Confirmed.... Red Bull / Alpha Tauri will be taking over the development of Honda F1 engines for 2022.

..... and from Honda, no surprise, their blessing.:

[Antonov]

it also means that if reliability or engine power is poor at the start of this season, Verstappen will probably consider his options for 2022.

[PTRACER]

it also means that if reliability or engine power is poor at the start of this season, Verstappen will probably consider his options for 2022.

And this is a reason why I really disagree with freezing anything. In a series like Indycar it is okay, but it's not good for F1. Unless they give Mercedes' engines to all teams that is.

[Everso Biggyballies]

it also means that if reliability or engine power is poor at the start of this season, Verstappen will probably consider his options for 2022.

And this is a reason why I really disagree with freezing anything. In a series like Indycar it is okay, but it's not good for F1. Unless they give Mercedes' engines to all teams that is.

Honda are saying their new engine (go figure how you get a new engine with an engine freeze, unless getting it in pre season beats the freeze) is meeting all expectations and power targets. They boast of having fast-tracked their originally planned for 2022 engine.
This article regarding the engine from Autosport.

Honda has explained the key changes it has made to its Formula 1 engine for this season, after revealing it has hit its performance targets over the winter.

The Japanese car manufacturer is heading in to its final F1 season hoping for a good sign off with partners Red Bull and AlphaTauri.

Having fast tracked a power unit that had originally been down for introduction in 2022, Honda says that early indications from its dyno testing in Japan are encouraging.

Honda's F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe says the company feels 'well prepared' after its winter work.

"On the dyno the numbers we have seen match what we expected," he explained as AlphaTauri revealed its 2021 challenger.

"Let's see how competitive we can be on track in the actual races."

Tanabe said that some areas of the power unit had been the focus of bigger changes, as Honda looked to make gains compared to the opposition.

"It is difficult to be specific about which parts have seen the most work, but in order to improve power and reliability, we have made modifications to the ICE, turbine and ERS," he explained.

"This is our third year with Scuderia AlphaTauri and in order to improve as a whole, we have also improved the installation and packaging of the entire PU."

Tanabe also explained the revised timing of the power unit specification being introduced this year, and how it had first been delayed last season before then again being brought forward when Honda announced its F1 departure.

"Before the Covid-19 pandemic, we were going to introduce a new PU for this year," he said.

"However, given all the difficulties and restrictions because of the long F1 shutdown, combined with the European lockdown and delay in parts supply, we had decided to postpone it to 2022.

"However, taking into account the decision announced in October 2020, that Honda would leave the sport at the end of 2021, we reassessed the situation and changed our plan again to reintroduce it in 2021.

"It was very tight timing to make this change, but we managed to bring forward the development and preparation programme. At Honda, we felt that we really wanted to use all our technical know-how before leaving the sport."

Tanabe also welcomed the agreement that Honda had reached with Red Bull, for the energy drinks company to take over the running of its power units from the start of next year.

"I think it is the right thing for Honda to do, considering our relationship with Scuderia AlphaTauri and Red Bull Racing, and how much Honda has benefited from those partnerships," he explained.

"It also reflects the importance of our role and history, as part of the world of Formula 1 over several decades. So, I am glad that Honda has been able to help the two teams and the sport in this way."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15511 ... s-for-2021

[PTRACER]

it also means that if reliability or engine power is poor at the start of this season, Verstappen will probably consider his options for 2022.

And this is a reason why I really disagree with freezing anything. In a series like Indycar it is okay, but it's not good for F1. Unless they give Mercedes' engines to all teams that is.

Honda are saying their new engine (go figure how you get a new engine with an engine freeze, unless getting it in pre season beats the freeze) is meeting all expectations and power targets. They boast of having fast-tracked their originally planned for 2022 engine.

I don't trust them lol

Let's wait to see what happens in the first race. I really do hope there will be a bit of a shakeup this year.

[DoubleFart]

Is that the same Dyno that only works across 2 axis and didn't pick up the oil pump flow issue on the first McLaren iteration?

[Aty]

Freezing engine development I equal to political insurgency against spirit of what used to be F1, a unique, and exceptional auto-sport.
F1 management cannot block teams from training as they do, and call itself top shelf sport, they cannot block or restrict equipment development, and still consider remnants of WCC of some value to that title. Soon half of the grid will be looking like a one car, and we know which one. It's travesty. I thought lessons of 2014 were learnt, but obviously if so, not hard enough.
Stefano should have called RB' bluff, and tell them - you want to leave, then leave, but we aren't going to put up anymore with blackmailing. Alpine (Renault) engines are available, so please move on, and stop whining.