Sebastian Vettel retiring after 2022 season

[caneparo]

Bottom post of the previous page:

If it was not for double decker diffuser, and such tricks, Red Bull would have been a car like others and Vettel had to sweat more and more.

Motorsports is a teamsport. Would Mansell have one WDC if his Williams was not that utterly dominant? Fangio 5 WDC if he would have sticked to one brand? How many titles would Moss had had if he had switched to a non-British team?

You got it. If I have to evaluate Vettel as a driver I must underline the difficulties he’s had lately, not only the dominance (yet some times he had to struggle against superb drives by Alonso). You can’t summarize all in motor sports only looking at the numbers. Otherwise we could say that bottas is faster than Gilles villeneuve. I have been supporting Vettel for years and I Have to regret how he has suffered the pressure in Ferrari. When his certainty have fallen, when in Red Bull he was told he was no more the number 1 driver, when marchionne suddenly died, he has melted like snow under the sun. It legitimate to question how much of his 4 titles come thanks to Adrian Newey.

[jimclark]

Many dynamics, that is for certain.
Let us not forget he has been in F1 14 years now so he just could be plain old tired as was J-P Sarti in "Grand Prix"....

[caneparo]

We get to see 20 great drivers and 10 different great teams/cars competing for wins and championships.

Two competitions for the price of one.......'gets no better than that! Great sport, ain't it?!

(And for those that enjoy that sort of thing, a soap opera thrown in to boot...... )

Oh really? Maybe if you added another discountedness such as that the championship is won by the guy/team scoring most points you could have the perfect incipit of the enciclopedia “motor sports for dummies”. Let’s be serious, the fact that Motorsport implies the use of the car does not stops us from having a discussion on how fast/strong a driver is. The bottom line is that Vettel has past his prime and also showed that he flips when he doesn’t feel he’s the primadonna in the team. The Aston Martin drive is a big risk for his reputation.

Then I am curiou to know about the “20 great drivers” and the “competition” you have seen in the last 7 years

[Everso Biggyballies]

.....When his certainty have fallen, when in Red Bull he was told he was no more the number 1 driver, when marchionne suddenly died, he has melted like snow under the sun. It legitimate to question how much of his 4 titles come thanks to Adrian Newey.

I have a similar problem with Vettel. It used to be back in the RBR days when if he was in front he would more often than not win.... the car and he were at one.
However I have always doubted his racecraft. Often if he was not in front things would not be so good and it was clearly not his comfort zone.
In the last 2-3 years the level of mistakes has crept up, and now with a car not suited to him he is to be frank, fairly average. It is as if he has to be in a specific car suited to his style for him to be effective. It is sad to see him this year as he struggles with a car that is far from perfect, but one that Leclerc can consistently do much better with.
I for these reasons accept Vettel's 4xWDC with a pinch of salt.... yes he is a great driver, but it seems only in a car specifically built and tailored to him. He is no Villeneuve or Peterson, both drivers able to wrestle the very best from an ordinary car.
I am also unsure of his development skills.
Will the Racing POint be suited to him? Will he be able to turn it into a regular podium getter? Will he be the one to be able to maximise the car?
Of course the other issue I have is, given the Stroll focus of the team will Seb get the updates first, or will like last weekend, Lance have priority? Obviously with Sergio outward bound the rationale between who gets priority on updates takes a different twist, but I can certainly see that upgrades will only be made available to Seb when the same updates are available to Lance. Cant have Lance being disadvantaged in what is effectively his team.

[caneparo]

Totally agree @Everso Biggyballies

You touched 3 important points regarding Vettel on which I share your point of view

Comfort zone: seb fucks it up when he get out of it, especially if he’s the middle of the pack. When he’s in front he proved almost unbeatable as well his some of his qualifying lap became legendary, making him the only guy able to compete with Hamilton on that field. But once more when his certainty disappeared he started to make mistakes also while leading (Germany 2018 is the best example) and also in qualifying he started being systematically beaten up by Leclerc

Developmental skills: he’s never been a tester even though we must say that the current rules allow no testing and that the values of the cars keep steady for the whole season, making development effectiveness a mere fine tuning.

Racing point: we can say that Vettel went in the lion’s liar. They will do anything possible to use Vettel to make look good stroll. On the other hand Stroll was able to get a podium in Monza, we should expect from Vettel that he would be able to compete for winning races.

[DoubleFart]

On the other hand Stroll was able to get a podium in Monza, we should expect from Vettel that he would be able to compete for winning races.

One red flag causing swallow does not make a summer. It's ridiculous to say he should be able to compete for winning races because one strategy got so badly fucked up that only a red flag could save it.

STOP THE STROLL MYTH - HE WOULD HAVE BEEN LAST.

[Star]

I think the love affair between Vettel and Ferrari ended a while ago and right now they're both getting through these races. Their car isn't in a position to fight for wins and I do seriously believe that Ferrari will do anything to keep CLAP ahead at this point. I may be getting old and cynical but there you go.

The pressure was too much and Vettel has buckled, hence the mistakes and frustration. That's how I see it anyway. Once he moves to Aston Martin (doesn't that name sound faster than Racing Point or is it just me?) I think we will see a new and revived Vettel who will up for the new challenge. That is what I am hoping for at least.

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

I think that Vettel's main problem is his approach: he never had a manager so he had to fight his corner by himself and that creates frictions and in the end his relationship with Ferrari suffered. People who know him say that although he's a very nice and genuine guy he's quite tough and very focused, in the first years with Ferrari he was known to watch the team work on his car and record every set up change of a copybook. This was ok 30 years ago but nowadays no one else does it (all of this data is readily available on a computer), people perceived this as a lack of confidence in the team.

Vettel certainly doesn't trust part of Ferrari's structure, he's famous for arguing with the strategists, the main problem with this seems to be that he's mostly right.

In terms of pure driving I think that Vettel is slightly better than Leclerc (as he was better than Ricciardo) the problem is that Leclerc is much stronger than him mentally. Leclerc grew up professionally with the help of Dr. Ceccarellki's Formula Medicine, he worked quite a lot with psychologists and he can manage his emotions much better than Vettel, who on this front remains a very old fashioned driver. So despite being a younger driver Leclerc caan keep his cool (and his focus) better than Vettel

Vettel also needs to be cocooned by his team, this was the case when he was at RBR but in this day and age Ferrari doesn't work like this: after Schumacher Ferrari was heavily criticised for pampering one of their drivers while letting the other one out in the cold and so they changed they approach. Pity Vettel didn't noticed about this shift in attitude before he signed for Ferrari.

All of the above helped to crate a very tense situation between Vettel and Ferrari.

The nail in the coffin was, IMHO, the fact that with Leclerc there was another arrival at Ferrari: Nicholas Todt... Todt's connections are clear to everyone (IMHO a clear conflict of interests that would not be tolerated in other walks of life, but in F1 such situation don't seem to be a problem), he's a very very pushy character, Vettel had no one fighting for him and he lost the war to Leclerc's side.

IMHO Vettel is trying too hard to be an "old fashioned" driver, if he accepted some compromises I think that he would solve most of his problems because in pure driving terms IMHO he's still on top with Hamilton and Vertsappen.

[Star]

I think that Vettel's main problem is his approach: he never had a manager so he had to fight his corner by himself and that creates frictions and in the end his relationship with Ferrari suffered. People who know him say that although he's a very nice and genuine guy he's quite tough and very focused, in the first years with Ferrari he was known to watch the team work on his car and record every set up change of a copybook. This was ok 30 years ago but nowadays no one else does it (all of this data is readily available on a computer), people perceived this as a lack of confidence in the team.

Vettel certainly doesn't trust part of Ferrari's structure, he's famous for arguing with the strategists, the main problem with this seems to be that he's mostly right.

In terms of pure driving I think that Vettel is slightly better than Leclerc (as he was better than Ricciardo) the problem is that Leclerc is much stronger than him mentally. Leclerc grew up professionally with the help of Dr. Ceccarellki's Formula Medicine, he worked quite a lot with psychologists and he can manage his emotions much better than Vettel, who on this front remains a very old fashioned driver. So despite being a younger driver Leclerc caan keep his cool (and his focus) better than Vettel

Vettel also needs to be cocooned by his team, this was the case when he was at RBR but in this day and age Ferrari doesn't work like this: after Schumacher Ferrari was heavily criticised for pampering one of their drivers while letting the other one out in the cold and so they changed they approach. Pity Vettel didn't noticed about this shift in attitude before he signed for Ferrari.

All of the above helped to crate a very tense situation between Vettel and Ferrari.

The nail in the coffin was, IMHO, the fact that with Leclerc there was another arrival at Ferrari: Nicholas Todt... Todt's connections are clear to everyone (IMHO a clear conflict of interests that would not be tolerated in other walks of life, but in F1 such situation don't seem to be a problem), he's a very very pushy character, Vettel had no one fighting for him and he lost the war to Leclerc's side.

IMHO Vettel is trying too hard to be an "old fashioned" driver, if he accepted some compromises I think that he would solve most of his problems because in pure driving terms IMHO he's still on top with Hamilton and Vertsappen.

As always my friend, I can't argue with what you say, it makes complete sense

[jimclark]

We get to see 20 great drivers and 10 different great teams/cars competing for wins and championships.

Two competitions for the price of one.......'gets no better than that! Great sport, ain't it?!

(And for those that enjoy that sort of thing, a soap opera thrown in to boot...... )

A) Let’s be serious, the fact that Motorsport implies the use of the car does not stops us from having a discussion on how fast/strong a driver is.

B) Then I am curiou to know about the (.1)“20 great drivers” and the (.2)“competition” you have seen in the last 7 years

A) Where does that come from?
I'm in agreement with you......I just offered "he just could be plain old tired as was J-P Sarti in "Grand Prix" " which is another way of saying your " Vettel has past his prime".........

B.1) Every grid.
The Formula one field of drivers are some of the very best in the world. There are others in other venues; some already having been in F1, and some that never had the opportunity to be in F1).

B.2) Only the past 7 years? I think that needs multiplying by 10. For the past 70 years there has been a competition called Formula One. No, it has not always been a close competition, but it has always been a competition, nonetheless.

That is what any sporting competition is, no?.......The testing of participants to see who is the best whether close or not (in this case two at once, constructors and drivers..

P.S. I notice there are many on this board that think I'm a "bad guy". It's apparently because I sometimes have an opposing view; as above, where @caneparo erroneously thought I disagreed with him. That's a shame.
I thought forums were for an exchange of information, ideas, and opinions....... If that is not so here on FL, let me know. I will quietly go away as I'm not into fascism (def.c. forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism)......

[DoubleFart]

The issue is your abrasive language/posting style, the attacks you've done on other members because you personally weren't interested in their post, and your determination to play semantics.

[Ruslan]

I think that Vettel's main problem is his approach: he never had a manager so he had to fight his corner by himself and that creates frictions and in the end his relationship with Ferrari suffered. People who know him say that although he's a very nice and genuine guy he's quite tough and very focused, in the first years with Ferrari he was known to watch the team work on his car and record every set up change of a copybook. This was ok 30 years ago but nowadays no one else does it (all of this data is readily available on a computer), people perceived this as a lack of confidence in the team.

Vettel certainly doesn't trust part of Ferrari's structure, he's famous for arguing with the strategists, the main problem with this seems to be that he's mostly right.

In terms of pure driving I think that Vettel is slightly better than Leclerc (as he was better than Ricciardo) the problem is that Leclerc is much stronger than him mentally. Leclerc grew up professionally with the help of Dr. Ceccarellki's Formula Medicine, he worked quite a lot with psychologists and he can manage his emotions much better than Vettel, who on this front remains a very old fashioned driver. So despite being a younger driver Leclerc caan keep his cool (and his focus) better than Vettel

Vettel also needs to be cocooned by his team, this was the case when he was at RBR but in this day and age Ferrari doesn't work like this: after Schumacher Ferrari was heavily criticised for pampering one of their drivers while letting the other one out in the cold and so they changed they approach. Pity Vettel didn't noticed about this shift in attitude before he signed for Ferrari.

All of the above helped to crate a very tense situation between Vettel and Ferrari.

The nail in the coffin was, IMHO, the fact that with Leclerc there was another arrival at Ferrari: Nicholas Todt... Todt's connections are clear to everyone (IMHO a clear conflict of interests that would not be tolerated in other walks of life, but in F1 such situation don't seem to be a problem), he's a very very pushy character, Vettel had no one fighting for him and he lost the war to Leclerc's side.

IMHO Vettel is trying too hard to be an "old fashioned" driver, if he accepted some compromises I think that he would solve most of his problems because in pure driving terms IMHO he's still on top with Hamilton and Vertsappen.

Pretty much agree with everything here.

My suspicion is that he is now a shell of his former self as a driver. I think he has gone too far down the path his is on to change. At this point, if I was a team owner, given a choice between Perez and Vettel, I would choose Perez. Choosing Vettel is a gamble.

[erwin greven]

If it was not for double decker diffuser, and such tricks, Red Bull would have been a car like others and Vettel had to sweat more and more.

Motorsports is a teamsport. Would Mansell have one WDC if his Williams was not that utterly dominant? Fangio 5 WDC if he would have sticked to one brand? How many titles would Moss had had if he had switched to a non-British team?

You got it. If I have to evaluate Vettel as a driver I must underline the difficulties he’s had lately, not only the dominance (yet some times he had to struggle against superb drives by Alonso). You can’t summarize all in motor sports only looking at the numbers. Otherwise we could say that bottas is faster than Gilles villeneuve. I have been supporting Vettel for years and I Have to regret how he has suffered the pressure in Ferrari. When his certainty have fallen, when in Red Bull he was told he was no more the number 1 driver, when marchionne suddenly died, he has melted like snow under the sun. It legitimate to question how much of his 4 titles come thanks to Adrian Newey.

The car Newey build was exactly the car Vettel needed to get the maximum out of his natural driving style. Note the bold word.

Natural.

I think that when he is racing against an opponent, he switches sometimes to his natural driving style and then spins. Because the cars he had to drive in the last few seasons were not build for his driving style. He likes a stable rear. Like a car with a blown diffuser. And the Ferrari's of the last few seasons, and in particular this season, are loose at the rear.

I think the car of this season is designed before the US GP of last year. Designed to have the pre-USGP engine. More power, so it could have more downforce. But since they got caught, the engine has way less power and therefore they have to trim downforce to keep some straight line speed. And thus is Vettel in big trouble.

[caneparo]

Personally I expected more from
Vettel after winning 4 in a row. Too easy winning with the best car in the best and with an easy teammate.

[erwin greven]

Mark was not an easy team mate. Same with Ricciardo. And i doubt if the RBR was constantly the best car.

[White six]

Mark was not an easy team mate. Same with Ricciardo. And i doubt if the RBR was constantly the best car.

Tbh any world championship chasing ace would dream of having team mates like Weber and Bottas. Keep you sharp but easy to push around when needed