The "When the fastest qualifier is not on Pole" 2021 British GP

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Everso Biggyballies
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#301

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Bottom post of the previous page:

erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.
And how many are bought then by Mercedes? Or Ferrari?
I think that is the point..... What @Ruslan has identified is not only did Red Bull in essence buy their titles, any other top team has done so this millennium. Yes even Brawn. .... Brawn knew that the hundreds of millions invested by Honda was at the point of fruition. They had in that process come up with the must have double diffuser first. Brawn himself spent none of his own money coming up with that but reaped the reward of the hundreds of millions Honda had, to come up with the Eureka moment.The reality it is not necessarily the team that sends the most that comes up with the goods....proof of that is the limited success of Ferrari in recent times. Their last success in the early noughties was down to one of their main sponsors being Bridgestone and the prefrential treatment that went with it.They have probably thrown as much money as anyone at their cars, but lacked finding that Eureka moment beyond a few years with a tyre advantage.

Or Lotus in developing Ground Effect to F1 terms. Eureka moment that all others had to spend big to follow

All of the main teams have thrown money by the bucketload at all aspects of the cars be it engine, aero, or chassis. Red Bull spent more on aero in their title years. Newey found secrets that others didnt. Mercedes did similar with their engine development..... what that sending had done, long before the hybrid engines were a reality, was built u a mass of knowledge which they used to push regulations to suit be agreed. Others were agreeing to potential rules they knew less about that Mercedes.

They have all sent the hundreds of millions. But the clever ones have recognised a tiny aspect within their develoment. It works against as well.... in their bulk sending it seems like Merc when down the wrong path investing in their low rake ideals.... Red Bull have now seemingly roved that high rake was the way to go.

Of course it in terms of the current cars, comes to an end this year with the new regs for 2022. What we dont know is of all the literally billions spent by all, developing next years cars, is who has within that send, identified the one item that becomes the next eureka moment. Who will have the big advantage of being first kid on the block with the new tech.

The only way in I can think of to illuminate the theory in relation to real life that fits in goes back for me several decades to when video recorders first came along. Beta or VHS. I bought Beta for whatever reason. Sony invested humungous money developing, Beta, but VHS became the one to have. For that era anyway. Beta became an expensive fail that almost took Sony with it.


Getting back to F1 I guess I am saying that of all the billions jointly invested in development it comes down to the smaller aspect where you refine that focus on that matters. And that focus point changes every few years to something totally new. And it seems blanket sending is how that relatively inexpensive sub sector gets identified.

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#302

Post by DoubleFart »

High rake was on the way to go if it wins them the next 8 titles, otherwise Low Rake, and the 2014-2020 titles is the way to go in my book.
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#303

Post by Ruslan »

erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.
And how many are bought then by Mercedes? Or Ferrari?
Mercedes: 7 - and there is no doubt that they spent more money than everyone else. I understand they spent $700 million for engine development alone leading up to the 2014 season.

Ferrari: at least 6 - I mean they hired away the entire senior staff of Benneton, including the driver. They even tried to hire away Briatore.

Now, Flavio Briatore won three team and four driver championships while he was head of Benneton/Renault. I don't think in any of them was he spending more than the other teams.
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#304

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
erwin greven wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.
And how many are bought then by Mercedes? Or Ferrari?
Mercedes: 7 - and there is no doubt that they spent more money than everyone else. I understand they spent $700 million for engine development alone leading up to the 2014 season.

Ferrari: at least 6 - I mean they hired away the entire senior staff of Benneton, including the driver. They even tried to hire away Briatore.

Now, Flavio Briatore won three team and four driver championships while he was head of Benneton/Renault. I don't think in any of them was he spending more than the other teams.
Briatore is a very savvy chap when it comes to money, recently he had his yacht seized by the Italian tax authorities and they sold it at auction (to Bernie) for a pittance. Funny thing is after the auction Flavio has won a court case against the tax authorities and now is in line for a massive payment: his boat was sold at auction for USD5m, he valued it at 25m despite the fact that its market value was probably half that sum and now he's likely to receive the 25m plus legal expense, damages, loss of earnings etc, in essence he has turned losing his yacht into a massive earning opportunity.

Anyway, back to the topic, I'm sure that Benetton didn't spend more than the other teams when they won all their silverware, in fairness one has to wonder if their cars were 100% in compliance with the rules 100% of the time :cool:
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#305

Post by Ruslan »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 years ago Briatore is a very savvy chap when it comes to money, recently he had his yacht seized by the Italian tax authorities and they sold it at auction (to Bernie) for a pittance. Funny thing is after the auction Flavio has won a court case against the tax authorities and now is in line for a massive payment: his boat was sold at auction for USD5m, he valued it at 25m despite the fact that its market value was probably half that sum and now he's likely to receive the 25m plus legal expense, damages, loss of earnings etc, in essence he has turned losing his yacht into a massive earning opportunity.
He is an amazing guy, and I don't always say that in a positive sense ;)
Anyway, back to the topic, I'm sure that Benetton didn't spend more than the other teams when they won all their silverware, in fairness one has to wonder if their cars were 100% in compliance with the rules 100% of the time :cool:
No, and at one point I remember Briatore releasing his budget figures and they were about 2/3rds of what other teams were spending.

As for "rules compliance": well, I think there was some concern over traction control in the 1994 season: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Form ... ontroversy

As for 1995, 2005 and 2006, I think they were clean (my memory may be a little fuzzy here).

On the other hand, I don't think Benneton's cheats in 1994 were worse than what Ferrari did in 2019
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#306

Post by Star »

New footage shows how far Max moved over to the line he usually took at that corner

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/90068/ne ... clash.html
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#307

Post by White six »

Star wrote: 2 years ago New footage shows how far Max moved over to the line he usually took at that corner

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/90068/ne ... clash.html
No surprise, that's what you do if you are defending. Make the corner tighter for the opponent, meaning they have to brake more

Not much of a revelation
The board equivalent of the Jody scheckter chicane. Fast but pointless
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#308

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

White six wrote: 2 years ago
Star wrote: 2 years ago New footage shows how far Max moved over to the line he usually took at that corner

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/90068/ne ... clash.html
No surprise, that's what you do if you are defending. Make the corner tighter for the opponent, meaning they have to brake more

Not much of a revelation
Did you watch the same clip? The clip I saw showed Max at least a car width wider than his Q3 lap overlayed, indicating just how much space he gave Lewis, who was nowhere near an ideal line. It backs up what the data that Horner refers to that showed Lewis was travelling substantially faster at that point than even his Q3 speed at the same point. No wonder he drifted so wide and was never anywhere near to hitting the apex.
It also says to me that had Max lifted and given the corner to Lewis, then the latter would have run wide and allowed Max to criss cross him and pass him cleanly on the exit.

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#309

Post by Star »

I have to say I'm with @Everso Biggyballies on this. I posted it then had to run as our grocery order showed up, but to me it showed Max was more than generous on that corner and Hamilton.... wasn't.

Edit: Just seen this on twitter, Red Bull aren't letting this matter go yet, no way.
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Red Bull lodge a petition for a right of review of the penalty given to Lewis Hamilton at the British Grand Prix. To be permitted, it requires a “significant and relevant new element which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned"
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#310

Post by Ruslan »

Well, it will be in court Thursday, so I guess we will get the final determination on this.
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#311

Post by Star »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Well, it will be in court Thursday, so I guess we will get the final determination on this.
Yes the courts will decide and just in time before the next race too. Red Bull clearly believe they have something new to show them that will prove Hamilton wasn't penalised enough.
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#312

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Star wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Well, it will be in court Thursday, so I guess we will get the final determination on this.
Yes the courts will decide and just in time before the next race too. Red Bull clearly believe they have something new to show them that will prove Hamilton wasn't penalised enough.
I am not sure what is new that they can show them, but that is the legal excuse for them to get an appeal. Apparently Max will be testifying.
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#313

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Star wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Well, it will be in court Thursday, so I guess we will get the final determination on this.
Yes the courts will decide and just in time before the next race too. Red Bull clearly believe they have something new to show them that will prove Hamilton wasn't penalised enough.
I am not sure what is new that they can show them, but that is the legal excuse for them to get an appeal. Apparently Max will be testifying.
As long as his Father is kept out of the way!

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#314

Post by Ruslan »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago
Star wrote: 2 years ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 years ago Well, it will be in court Thursday, so I guess we will get the final determination on this.
Yes the courts will decide and just in time before the next race too. Red Bull clearly believe they have something new to show them that will prove Hamilton wasn't penalised enough.
I am not sure what is new that they can show them, but that is the legal excuse for them to get an appeal. Apparently Max will be testifying.
As long as his Father is kept out of the way!
Well, I think it is a mistake to have Max testify. It sort of really does make it about him vs Lewis.
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#315

Post by PTRACER »

I really think they need to shut up about this incident now. It wasn't THAT dramatic, or that exciting, and the punishment roughly fitted the crime I guess.

Even Max himself doesn't care anymore:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/verst ... h/6637852/
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#316

Post by DoubleFart »

The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Punishing somebody who has a 25 second car advantage in normal conditions with a 10 second penalty is not a fit crime, as demonstrated in the race.

He would have retired had it not been for the red flag HE caused. He gained 25 points on his rival by either severe ineptitude (7x WDC and goat they say!) or by malicious intent.
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