2023 WHAT HAPPENS IN VEGAS STAYS IN VEGAS SIN CITY GP

[Everso Biggyballies]

Bottom post of the previous page:

McLaren identify likely cause of Norris Las Vegas crash

"Independently of the timetable, we would strongly recommend that this bump is smoothened out."

https://racingnews365.com/mclaren-expla ... al-release

Bollocks. Lando was the only driver who got caught by it in such a way, that he crashed. Let this bump be one of the few features that makes this track interesting. Because the layout stays boring.

I have to agree with this. If there is a bump there then don't drive over it.

Agree with 'the same for everyone' sentiments, but at the time my mind said that was like Senna, (or some of the subsequent allegations post Imola)..... low tyre pressures from cold tyres, perhaps compounded by an aggressive set up led to lowered ground clearance and in turn exaggerated the bump and in effect the car grounded which on rebound caused loss of traction and control in a normally flat out curve, and route 1 to the scene of the accident.

At the end of the day the teams know the track temps, their setup and circumstances plus know every bump and undulation in the track. Deal with it. Easy for the engineer to get on the blower to Lando and remind him of his circumstantial low ground clearance cold tyres etc. We always hear drivers being told to avoid this and that.

[Aty]

Max on his 5 sec penalty:

“As soon as you're a bit offline here, it's a super low grip and that's what happened. I braked and there was no grip.

“I didn't mean to push Charles off the track, but I couldn't slow it down and I just kept sliding wide on four wheels. So that's why we had to go wide.

“At the time, you're also full of adrenaline and I was not happy with the decision. But looking back at it was probably the right call.

“With that five-second penalty, it was definitely a bit harder to come back to the front.”

RN365

In the same event, like for Carlos Sainz, track goes against driver, yet he carries burden of it. Stewards and rulle book have way to go getting things right, and read/treat incidents properly. Track was green, and Max has a point. Will they deal with poor decisions making process? For some reason I doubt it. Punishing Verstappen probably made for some good overtaking, yet the decision seems totally wrong and unfair. It was not intentional and should had been treated as a racing incident IMO. (Next question is, when was it last time F1 was "fair"?)

[Everso Biggyballies]

Max on his 5 sec penalty:

“As soon as you're a bit offline here, it's a super low grip and that's what happened. I braked and there was no grip.

“I didn't mean to push Charles off the track, but I couldn't slow it down and I just kept sliding wide on four wheels. So that's why we had to go wide.

“At the time, you're also full of adrenaline and I was not happy with the decision. But looking back at it was probably the right call.

“With that five-second penalty, it was definitely a bit harder to come back to the front.”

RN365

In the same event, like for Carlos Sainz, track goes against driver, yet he carries burden of it. Stewards and rulle book have way to go getting things right, and read/treat incidents properly. Track was green, and Max has a point. Will they deal with poor decisions making process? For some reason I doubt it. Punishing Verstappen probably made for some good overtaking, yet the decision seems totally wrong and unfair. It was not intentional and should had been treated as a racing incident IMO. (Next question is, when was it last time F1 was "fair"?)

Max is competent and experienced enough to know that the first corner of the race was going to be particularly low grip at that time. He ran Charles off the track and he himself also was 4 wheels off the track. Im sure he didnt mean to do it but fact is he did, adrenalin charged or whatever.

That was a deserved penalty and he is well aware of it. He did the crime and did the time. Yes it made it more difficult for him and compromised his race, but he took a chance and it (albeit temporarily) bit him. He came into the corner way too hot and was never going to make the corner by staying on track.

He could have easily avoided the penalty by giving the place back immediately, sat behind Charles, and then have been able to use DRS to pass Charles when the DRS was enabled just two laps later. The matter would have been closed and Max would have been in the lead with no race compromising penalty over his head.

He and the team chose not to take the simple action that would have negated any penalty and investigation, rolled the dice and got a double 1 as most predicted he would. That roll of the dice was never going to be a double 6! He and the team made their own race more challenging (to use your words, created their own burden) with their actions and reactions.

Max himself on reflection admitted the penalty was "probably the right call". He, as all but diehard Max fans, agree.

Case closed.

[Aty]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control. He should have known better is (forgive me) is nonsensical proposition for that case. If that's the direction we want to take, than every time there is skrimage on the track, and someone gets hit, next to his car damage he should be then also punished with time penalty because drivers know danger racing poses, and he should have avoided getting involved. This kind of logic is of course nonsensical in this kind of sport.

IMO proper way to treat these kind of incidents is to differentiate between intent and incidents arising from inherent characteristics of racing conditions (which I think was a case on first lap). Max was happy to win the race, and accepted penalty without much thought. Max's journey back to the lead was interesting and entertaining, but despite that, it was IMHO not a right call by the Stewards.

[Star]

Personally, I think Max made the right call in not giving the place back for us fans as it made the race way more exciting. If he'd handed the place back, he'd have swept by Leclerc again pretty swiftly and that would have been the end of that. So for me, not handing the place back turned out to be the better decision. I know he should have done so, but I'm sort of glad he didn't.

[Michael Ferner]

Drivers today get coached all around the track, yet they are still unable to negotiate a corner safely because - oops! - the grip isn't there? In my opinion, Max Verstappen has no place amongst the greats of this sport (and by extension, neither has any of the other hot shots in the field - what a bunch of lame-os. They'd be all off within two corners in a real race on a real track).

[Aty]

Michael, that's not only harsh critique but possibly also not fair one. We don't know if winners of the past era could handle current cars any more skillfully than Max does. Conditions aren't comparable. Drivers of yesteryears did well with equipment they had, and Max does the same today. What happened in LV on the first lap was relatively minor incident. Stewards made a bigger deal of it than was necessary.

Alonso:

Fernando Alonso believes current Formula 1 cars “are not made” for the slow-speed corners present in Las Vegas after the high-speed straights.

He added it was “not much fun” in driving that kind of layout in the cold conditions, with grip and temperatures proving to be tough to find for the drivers all weekend long in Las Vegas.

While it was the first event on a freshly-surfaced track, Alonso believes modern Formula 1 cars are designed for the sweeping corners of some of the series’ classics, rather than the long straights and big stops of Las Vegas.

[Michael Ferner]

Alonso is another dud, just watch him barrel into the first corner like a loose canon! If even multiple champions like alonso and verstappen are unable to make it through turn one safely, it's curtains, really. What a sad state of affairs.

[Michael Ferner]

"Fernando Alonso believes current Formula 1 cars “are not made” for the slow-speed corners present in Las Vegas after the high-speed straights."


Yeah, right. Not like the 1000-bhp cars with turbo lag and manual shifts, tailormade for the Monaco street circuit. Or the cigar-shaped fuel transporters with wheels on it, perfect for a trip around Nürburgring! In a Silberpfeil up and down Pescara's mountain serpentines, and along the five-kilometre straights? Much more comfortable than a present day's F1 car!! Or a supercharged Miller on a 20s board track, what could be more pleasant to drive?

[XcraigX]

I agree with the penalty. Too fast for conditions is not a valid excuse at this level of racing. Taking a bit of caution in the first corner of a cold race (very similar to a wet race) is expected.
Additionally, there is no way for the stewards to judge intent. Only actions. Ooops or on purpose can only be determined by an interview with the driver and that can't happen effectively during a race.

Lastly, this penalty is consistent with others in the past, if not a bit light in sentence.

[Aty]

If judges cannot judge intent, than treated as a racing incident. It's simple as that. Ambient conditions in LV would support such conclusion. Playing almighty sitting at the desk with a cup of coffee and pretending they know more than a driver is a tad too far.

[Everso Biggyballies]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control. He should have known better is (forgive me) is nonsensical proposition for that case. If that's the direction we want to take, than every time there is skrimage on the track, and someone gets hit, next to his car damage he should be then also punished with time penalty because drivers know danger racing poses, and he should have avoided getting involved. This kind of logic is of course nonsensical in this kind of sport.

IMO proper way to treat these kind of incidents is to differentiate between intent and incidents arising from inherent characteristics of racing conditions (which I think was a case on first lap). Max was happy to win the race, and accepted penalty without much thought. Max's journey back to the lead was interesting and entertaining, but despite that, it was IMHO not a right call by the Stewards.

We will agree to disagree. You have an opinion that doesnt agree with mine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. No problem

[Michael Ferner]

If judges cannot judge intent, than treated as a racing incident. It's simple as that. Ambient conditions in LV would support such conclusion. Playing almighty sitting at the desk with a cup of coffee and pretending they know more than a driver is a tad too far.

So, let's do away with all the penalties, unless the driver agrees? Would not be difficult to implement, just give every driver a button on his steering wheel, and if the stewards propose a penalty they can accept by pushing it. After all, they know better.

[Michael Ferner]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control.

In my opinion, if the driver's not in control then he has no business being on the track. Just my two cents.

[Aty]

I disagree.

Being aware of the risk green track poses as a challenge to the driver is one thing, managing it in racing conditions is another one, and not totally or always in driver's control.

In my opinion, if the driver's not in control then he has no business being on the track. Just my two cents.

i would not go that far. No need to go to extremes.

[Michael Ferner]

Extremes? I really, REALLY don't think so!

Used to be, every aspiring driver had to show he was capable of being in control at all times to even only get his licence! This is not knitting for beginners, it's motor racing - MOTOR SPORT IS DANGEROUS!!