FIA to start process for new teams to join F1

[PTRACER]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Yep. I know it's a nasty thing to say because I don't want to lose teams from F1, but this is the first serious bid in what, 15 years? (2010 was the last time actual new teams joined as far as I'm aware). That's not a positive statistic.

Gene Haas would like a word.

[snip]

But yeah Haas actually started racing in 2016, ostensibly as a start up team beyond buying the Marussia factory and contents..

A lot of teams on the grid took over the assets of another, either defunct or operational, team. Andretti's is a rare case of starting from scratch, is it not?

[Ruslan]

Noted this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... a716&ei=16

The element that got my attention is this:

"While F1 and many of the teams have expressed their misgivings about Andretti’s arrival, Ben Sulayem said even a lack of approval from F1 doesn’t mean that Andretti can’t take up a place on the grid."

“What I’ve heard from the legal side is that they [FOM] can say no to the financial [element],” Ben Sulayem told Speedcafe.com.

“But the licence [to compete in F1] belongs to the FIA, so they [Andretti] would be running, but without getting any money, and I don’t think that would happen.

“For me, I am optimistic they [FOM] will not say no, but anything can happen. I just hope they don’t say no because it is so good for business, so good to sustain motorsport.”

As for the existing teams not wanting Andretti to join, due to a dilution of the prize money pot – despite Andretti having to pay an anti-dilution entry fee of €200 million, which is likely to rise considerably under the new Concorde Agreement for 2026 – Ben Sulayem was dismissive of their involvement.

“Let’s ask ourselves a question – why do Michael Andretti and GM need the teams’ support? I don’t understand,” Ben Sulayem told Speedcafe.com.

“Do they [the teams] have any say in the admission?”

To the suggestion that the teams’ input is then “irrelevant”, Ben Sulayem responded: “To this, yes.

“In the sport, they are an element, and everybody has the right to express their feeling toward it, but how can you refuse GM? I don’t understand. Just why?”

Does this mean that Andretti can join and race, but just not be a part of the fund (and not have to pay the anti-dilution entry fee of 200 million)?

[Aty]

Noted this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... a716&ei=16

To the suggestion that the teams’ input is then “irrelevant”, Ben Sulayem responded: “To this, yes.

“In the sport, they are an element, and everybody has the right to express their feeling toward it, but how can you refuse GM? I don’t understand. Just why?”

Does this mean that Andretti can join and race, but just not be a part of the fund (and not have to pay the anti-dilution entry fee of 200 million)?

The thing is, teams aren't refusing GM. That's gross misrepresentation of team's position by Sulayem.

FiA is determined to take away team's some money (reward), and handed over to Andretti. That's the sole issue. The (financial pie) is divided into 10 slices aleady. According to Sulayem the teams have nothing to say if he and Liberty will be dividing the same size pie into 11 or more slices and teams have nothing to say about it.

That's what Sulayem is feeding us? I want to see how far he will get with this kind of attitute.

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

Noted this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... a716&ei=16


Does this mean that Andretti can join and race, but just not be a part of the fund (and not have to pay the anti-dilution entry fee of 200 million)?[/b]

First of all let me say that I find the rejection of Andretti-GM's bid madness, I think that whilst what Sulayem is possibly true in point of law (based on the fact that (i) entries into Formula 1 are subject to the FIA approval as F1 is not a self regulated entity but is regulated by FIA and that (ii) I see a few competition law issues in banning them from the prize money) the point here is that if they go to court it will cost Andretti a fortune and will quite likely be a very long process and in both ways they will effectively be out for years pending the court's decision so in the end Andretti would be toast even if they eventually win their case. Sadly.

I think that this is happening because for too long the FIA turned a blind eye to what is happening in F1, F1 is a matter for the FIA, the Concorde agreement is just an agreement between some teams (and the guys who sell the TV and other rights) whereby they agree to share some of the revenues, where in the regulations is says that if you are not part of the Concorde Agreement you cannot enter F1? the FIA has every legal right to run the show but they have been very soft over the years and this is the only logical outcome. The teams pursue their interest not the interest of F1 as a whole, each time is in fact in a massive conflict of interest in this matter as they are allowed to vote in a matter that can be advantageous for them ("if you don't buy my existing team I will not approve your entry").

If the FIA had any self respect they should be the ones taking the teams to court, but I'm sure it won't happen, the whole point here is that there is probably at least one team that is up for sale, their value with this kind of approach is probably a lot of money, if on the other hand that FIA were to re-establish their authority that same team would be worth very little, in a sense the teams are trying to sell something that they don't own (their entry into the FIA world championship)

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

I've been thinking about this. So if I was Andretti my first instinct on reading the statement would be to tell them where to shove themselves. Then, later on, probably much later on when I'd calmed down some, I'd be on the phone to Gene Haas and offering him the chance to name his price.

There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say

I understand what you're saying but it's a bit like caving in to blackmail, the teams have rejected Andretti because they want to protect the (artificial and inflated) price that they can get for selling their entry, if anyone could race with a car in compliance with the regs and a driver with a valid superlicence (as IMHO it should be the case given that F1 is a sport and not a business) some of the less succesful teams (like the one who seems to be on sale) would be worth nothing, what the team are doing is trying to sell their entry, the problem is that they don't own their entry, if anything the entries belong to the FIA... this reminds me of an old film where a very famous Italian comedian (Toto, not a relation I suppose even if it's funny that this reminds us of someone else ) was trying to sell the Trevi fountain to American tourists

In case you're interested in the business model that the teams are pursuing in the matter of Andretti's entry (ie trying to seel something that does not belong to them) I attach a link to the aforementioned film. Sadly it's in Italian only but still it gives you an idea and it's very funny, this clip is from the film Tototruffa, that could be translate into English as "Toto-scam" ( ), Toto is the old guy with a hat, enjoy it!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rYuIz54TQY[/youtube]

[Ruslan]

Noted this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... a716&ei=16


Does this mean that Andretti can join and race, but just not be a part of the fund (and not have to pay the anti-dilution entry fee of 200 million)?[/b]

First of all let me say that I find the rejection of Andretti-GM's bid madness, I think that whilst what Sulayem is possibly true in point of law (based on the fact that (i) entries into Formula 1 are subject to the FIA approval as F1 is not a self regulated entity but is regulated by FIA and that (ii) I see a few competition law issues in banning them from the prize money) the point here is that if they go to court it will cost Andretti a fortune and will quite likely be a very long process and in both ways they will effectively be out for years pending the court's decision so in the end Andretti would be toast even if they eventually win their case. Sadly.

I think that this is happening because for too long the FIA turned a blind eye to what is happening in F1, F1 is a matter for the FIA, the Concorde agreement is just an agreement between some teams (and the guys who sell the TV and other rights) whereby they agree to share some of the revenues, where in the regulations is says that if you are not part of the Concorde Agreement you cannot enter F1? the FIA has every legal right to run the show but they have been very soft over the years and this is the only logical outcome. The teams pursue their interest not the interest of F1 as a whole, each time is in fact in a massive conflict of interest in this matter as they are allowed to vote in a matter that can be advantageous for them ("if you don't buy my existing team I will not approve your entry").

If the FIA had any self respect they should be the ones taking the teams to court, but I'm sure it won't happen, the whole point here is that there is probably at least one team that is up for sale, their value with this kind of approach is probably a lot of money, if on the other hand that FIA were to re-establish their authority that same team would be worth very little, in a sense the teams are trying to sell something that they don't own (their entry into the FIA world championship)

So can Andretti enter F1 anyway, just not be a part of the Concord agreement and the payout for TV rights? That is my understanding of the situation (as they have been approved by FIA)?

[Ruslan]

Latest statement from Andretti: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... 6e82&ei=10

"Andretti Cadillac would like to address two initial topics in the statement released by Formula One Management:"

When Andretti Cadillac entered the FIA expression of interest process almost a year ago, the preferred first year of participation was indicated as 2025. The FIA approved our application, with no specific limitation on whether the entry was for 2025 or 2026. Andretti Cadillac has been operating with 2026 as the year of entry for many months now. The technicality of 2025 still being part of the application is a result of the length of this process,"

"We were not aware that the offer of a meeting had been extended and would not decline a meeting with Formula One Management. An in-person meeting to discuss commercial matters would be and remains of paramount importance to Andretti Cadillac. We welcome the opportunity to meet with Formula One Management and have written to them confirming our interest."

"Our work continues at pace."

[P. Cornelius Scipio]

Noted this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... a716&ei=16


Does this mean that Andretti can join and race, but just not be a part of the fund (and not have to pay the anti-dilution entry fee of 200 million)?[/b]

First of all let me say that I find the rejection of Andretti-GM's bid madness, I think that whilst what Sulayem is possibly true in point of law (based on the fact that (i) entries into Formula 1 are subject to the FIA approval as F1 is not a self regulated entity but is regulated by FIA and that (ii) I see a few competition law issues in banning them from the prize money) the point here is that if they go to court it will cost Andretti a fortune and will quite likely be a very long process and in both ways they will effectively be out for years pending the court's decision so in the end Andretti would be toast even if they eventually win their case. Sadly.

I think that this is happening because for too long the FIA turned a blind eye to what is happening in F1, F1 is a matter for the FIA, the Concorde agreement is just an agreement between some teams (and the guys who sell the TV and other rights) whereby they agree to share some of the revenues, where in the regulations is says that if you are not part of the Concorde Agreement you cannot enter F1? the FIA has every legal right to run the show but they have been very soft over the years and this is the only logical outcome. The teams pursue their interest not the interest of F1 as a whole, each time is in fact in a massive conflict of interest in this matter as they are allowed to vote in a matter that can be advantageous for them ("if you don't buy my existing team I will not approve your entry").

If the FIA had any self respect they should be the ones taking the teams to court, but I'm sure it won't happen, the whole point here is that there is probably at least one team that is up for sale, their value with this kind of approach is probably a lot of money, if on the other hand that FIA were to re-establish their authority that same team would be worth very little, in a sense the teams are trying to sell something that they don't own (their entry into the FIA world championship)

So can Andretti enter F1 anyway, just not be a part of the Concord agreement and the payout for TV rights? That is my understanding of the situation (as they have been approved by FIA)?

I think that if it wasn't so expensive they could try, they could turn up at the first race and see what happens, given the amounts of money involved in I think it's impossible

[Everso Biggyballies]

I believe that the Concorde which covers all parties, FOM FIA and teams has to be signed for a team to be eligible to race. A team being within the Concorde is then classified as a legit entrant and can race within the guidelines (2 cars etc). I think the legal issue that Andretti can do is to challenge the ethics of the Concorde at the EU Council or whatever it is called. One of the issues is that the current Concorde expires at the end of 2025 with a new Concorde to be formulated for 2026 on.. The Concorde of course is what outlines who gets what of th pie. Whether the dilution fee is part of the Concorde I dont know. I imagine it is but have no idea whether it is in reality..

[Star]

This isn't over yet by a long chalk is it? Andretti isn't going to give up and I can't say I blame them. All the time and money they have put into this and being told they were approved on some levels and so on. If they aren't allowed to race, who is going to compensate them for all that wasted time and money?

If they were going to reject them on such flimsy levels, why didn't they do it before? Why string them along and then say no after all this time? As with many things in life, it's not fair.

@P. Cornelius Scipio We had a similar event here to the 'fountain sale'. Back in the 1960s they sold London Bridge to an American. Now it said they thought they were buying the much more impressive Tower Bridge, that however is a whole other thing. That is why London Bridge is now in Arizona, a tourist attraction in the desert.

[Star]

I believe that the Concorde which covers all parties, FOM FIA and teams has to be signed for a team to be eligible to race. A team being within the Concorde is then classified as a legit entrant and can race within the guidelines (2 cars etc). I think the legal issue that Andretti can do is to challenge the ethics of the Concorde at the EU Council or whatever it is called. One of the issues is that the current Concorde expires at the end of 2025 with a new Concorde to be formulated for 2026 on.. The Concorde of course is what outlines who gets what of th pie. Whether the dilution fee is part of the Concorde I dont know. I imagine it is but have no idea whether it is in reality..

I assume there is no chance the new concorde agreement could allow for another team to come in? If I was Andretti I'd definitely sue them. They're a bit busy with European farmers who are protesting there right now though, he'd have to wade through plenty of sh... crap to get there

[Aty]

What has ECJ or farmers have to do anything with this case? The F1 legal issues would be registered in the English court. F1 is registered there. I thought that's basic general knowledge. The FOM, American business entity which would stand as a defendant, because it was them at the end who blocked Andretti's entry.

[Everso Biggyballies]

What has ECJ or farmers have to do anything with this case? The F1 legal issues would be registered in the English court. F1 is registered there. I thought that's basic general knowledge. The FOM, American business entity which would stand as a defendant, because it was them at the end who blocked Andretti's entry.

FIA is registered in Paris. with their Place De La Concorde address. Hence the name of the original Agreement because it was all negotiated in the Place De La Concorde..

[Aty]

What has ECJ or farmers have to do anything with this case? The F1 legal issues would be registered in the English court. F1 is registered there. I thought that's basic general knowledge. The FOM, American business entity which would stand as a defendant, because it was them at the end who blocked Andretti's entry.

FIA is registered in Paris. with their Place De La Concorde address. Hence the name of the original Agreement because it was all negotiated in the Place De La Concorde..

I am not a lawyer, but I think you are mistaken. Two parties are involved. FiA approved the applicaton, but they needed Liberty's signature of approval as well, and they didn't get it. FiA has nohing to be sued for. This is not a regulatory case. It was a business decision. Liberty has controling interest.

F1's business is regstered in England. Their hedquarters are in London. If I recall correctly back when I read related paperwork, any dispute between ownership and teams would go through English legal system.

I am not entirely sure why would anyone think they can enforced membership where they not want you. Bad decision on long run anyway.

The Formula One Group is a group of companies which is responsible for the overall organisation, promotion, and use of the sport’s commercial rights. This is different to the FIA’s ownership of the sport.

[Ruslan]

I believe that the Concorde which covers all parties, FOM FIA and teams has to be signed for a team to be eligible to race. A team being within the Concorde is then classified as a legit entrant and can race within the guidelines (2 cars etc). I think the legal issue that Andretti can do is to challenge the ethics of the Concorde at the EU Council or whatever it is called. One of the issues is that the current Concorde expires at the end of 2025 with a new Concorde to be formulated for 2026 on.. The Concorde of course is what outlines who gets what of th pie. Whether the dilution fee is part of the Concorde I dont know. I imagine it is but have no idea whether it is in reality..

Well, Andretti is not going racing until 2026. Now one of the primary reasons FOM gave for rejecting their application was that they were going racing in 2025 and did not understand the cost and problems of building two cars for two different regulations. So, suspect Andretti has a strong argument that the rejection is invalid (who they make the argument to is a different subject). So, if people are compromising, then something can be worked out for 2026 with Andretti in the new Concorde agreement.

I do think Andretti needs to file multiple legal cases so they have something they can withdraw when they reach a compromise agreement for 2026. Now I gather FOM is a UK company, and Liberty Media is a U.S. company. But, lots of the races are in "Europe" so.... they will probably have to pursue them in multiple venues. Not sure U.S. law gives them a basis for a law suit.

Anyhow, I don't think this thing is over, but it is going to embarrass F1. FIA could also choose to hold up any Concorde agreement and force FOM and the teams to agree to allow FIA to choose additional teams (there are supposed to be 12).

[Aty]

I am not sure there will be a new Concorde Agreement. Lberty was quoted that they think they not need one. I am hopng they will change their mind.