Greatest Underdog moments

[PTRACER]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Would it be unfair if I said Gilles' win at Jarama '81 was overrated? The car was garbage, but the track had no overtaking opportunities either. I don't think anyone within that top 5 overtook anyone else during those laps.

[Michael Ferner]

Like most things related to The Holy Gilles, at least slightly overrated, yes. Though you have pay due respect to his resilience and coping under intense pressure, with a car that was pretty unpredictable in handling and an engine with lots of end power but not so much in driveability. And there WERE overtaking opportunities, in those days tyre performance would drop off, handling characteristics would change over the race distance and drivers had to shift manually, so putting pressure on the man up front often paid dividends. Ask Carlos Reutemann, who missed a gear change and dropped from second to fourth as a consequence!

[Everso Biggyballies]

Yes, as Michael has pointed out, there were overtakes. Agreed they were not traditional type overtakes but they were often as a result of minor mistakes from the driver in front. In addition Laffite and Jones were battling their way back through the field. Most of the drivers in the following gaggle made mistakes trying to get into 2nd to tackle Gilles. As I say not perhaps the traditional slipstream and outbrake type passes, but a damm site better that todays strategic pitlane passing.

Aspects of Gilles drive that are perhaps overlooked were just how much of a thinking race Gilles drove that day.... far from his usual hero or zero stuff. As Michael said Gilles had a car that was quick in a straight line but pitiful in the twisty bits. Gilles deliberately had his brake balance a bit further forward biased than normal. He knew he was quick in a straight, but he also knew he was the best of the late brakers on the grid. He cranked the bias to the front knowing the very hint of a rear lockup would be the end of his race. Front wheel grabbing he could deal with.

Another aspect not so much realised was Gilles had almost come unstuck in traffic. For the last few laps he was approaching Giacomelli’s Alfa Romeo. Gilles knew his rhythm would be upset should he catch Giaco. Over the final laps the gap to Giaco grew..... not because he had picked up speed, but because Gilles was simply controlling the pace where his car was not fast..... he was at the end lapping slower than Giacomeeli. It was as good a display of self-control as you could wish to see, with four cars pushing hard he picked his way through the corners without deliberately baulking them, but making quite sure there was not quite enough room anywhere for another car. He was doing their heads in and ensuring they had to defend their positions from behind as much as try to pass Gilles. His placement of a dud car on dud tyres was a masterclass. A well-deserved tactical victory without doubt.

[Michael Ferner]

It is perhaps important to look at this race in the context of its time. I can understand that 21st century F1 fans look at it and see only five cars running nose to tail, with no overtaking possible, but this was not so before the age of the pit stops. Drivers had to set up their cars for drastically different conditions, full tanks and fresh tyres at the beginning, and considerably lower weight (about one quarter of the total weight of the car less!) but worn tyres in the closing stages. Some would set up for a strong car in the beginning, some for a good run at the end, but most would go for a compromise. You never really knew who would be doing what, and drivers themselves often had to guess on set up because conditions changed, too - you could have warm and dry weather in practice, but cool and windy on Sunday, or vice versa. So, the game was always to put the pressure up and try to force the guy ahead into a mistake, and small mistakes would always happen so overtaking wasn't really a rare thing.

With pit stops, a race like that was never going to happen, and if it happened nobody was going to be able to overtake because every car was near optimum performance, especially with refuelling (no big differences in weight anymore). But back in those days, we were on tenderhooks for nearly half an hour during the closing stages of this race, and with increasing intensity because the train behind the Ferrari was growing all the time, and change of order seemed imminent even if it didn't happen (except for Reutemann dropping two positions). Imagine the cars had DRS back then, it would have killed any suspense whatsoever...

[Michkov]

It would be if it was the last 5 laps, but Villeneuve kept ahead of that train for 4/5ths of the race distance. It's not the fact that keeping a garbage car ahead on a twisty track, it's doing it for lap after lap without mistake that makes it impressive for me.

[Michael Ferner]

Actually, Villeneuve was under pressure from Reutemann for the whole race, and didn't put a foot wrong! Made a bit easier by his straightline speed advantage, but still very impressive; the Williams was clearly the faster car over a lap (if handicapped by a 'spongy' gearchange).

Funny thing, in an idle moment I counted the genuine overtakes for position in this race on a notoriously difficult track for overtaking, and got up to forty, not counting the re-shuffling on the opening lap or the places lost by making contact (like in the case of Piquet and Andretti). That was just normal for those days, but I doubt a modern F1 race can come up to those numbers even with DRS. Anyone saying F1 is better today is just delusional.

[SBan83]

Interesting read on this topic: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... h-justice/

[Everso Biggyballies]

Interesting read on this topic: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... h-justice/

Which is already posted in full here for those that cant access Motorsport Mag. .viewtopic.php?t=5444&start=1455#p458719.

[SBan83]

D'oh!

[PTRACER]

I've only ever watched the last 6 laps so I've been trying to get myself a copy of the race in English so I can comment properly. Haven't found anything online. Yes I have access to the "special site" of race videos. Can anyone help?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Roberto Moreno winning the 1988 International Formula 3000 title with Bromley Motorsport. The team hadn't even scored a point prior to 1988 and wouldn't score in the 1989 Season, after which they were never seen again.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Damon Hill almost winning the 1997 Hungarian GP for Arrows. Not to mention qualifying 3rd on the grid for the race in question.