World Superbike and Supports 2019

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Re: World Superbike and Supports 2019

Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Right, so who did say anything about Ducati's straight-line speed advantage? And the looming clampdown on revs? Not to mention Ducati has that S/L speed advantage in MotoGP too so that fits in line with their bike development. Kawasaki had a stroll in the park over the past few years, now it appears they've got a job on their hands (finally!).
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Post by kals » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
Right, so who did say anything about Ducati's straight-line speed advantage? And the looming clampdown on revs? Not to mention Ducati has that S/L speed advantage in MotoGP too so that fits in line with their bike development. Kawasaki had a stroll in the park over the past few years, now it appears they've got a job on their hands (finally!).
It’s all good to have competition but you’re conveniently ignoring the fact that Ducati had a stroll in the park for many years in WSBK. But that’s fine, you ignore that to make your point somehow the Kwakas have become Evil Empire.

No-one said Ducati were all speed. That was your (incorrect) assumption. What was said was that there is a known straight line speed advantage to that bike and it’s expected that their rev limit will fall into line with the other bikes. No mention of MotoGP either. The fact there was the Ducati were able to introduce the new Big Bang engine that only Stoner was able to embrace. Nothing to do with rev limits there. It’s also worth mentioning that Ducati have had a competitive (to Kawasaki) bike the past 2-3 seasons, yet it’s been Davies’ and Melandri’s consistency and mistakes that have cost them a proper shot at the title.

Bautista was phenomenal this weekend. No question. We can agree to that, right?

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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

Yes, Ducati had a stroll in the WSBK park too but they focused on four-stroke bikes since the early 1980s? So that didn't fit with the old 500cc. And didn't Cagiva actually own Ducati back then? And Cagiva was running 500cc while the Ducati brand was left for WSBK.

I'm not surprised Bautista did so well in PI, he should still be in MotoGP tbh instead of bums like Abraham.
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Post by kals » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
Yes, Ducati had a stroll in the WSBK park too but they focused on four-stroke bikes since the early 1980s? So that didn't fit with the old 500cc. And didn't Cagiva actually own Ducati back then? And Cagiva was running 500cc while the Ducati brand was left for WSBK.
Entirely agree. The rules allowed Ducati to dominate the series over a significant period of it's history. Didn't make them the Evil Empire then, as it doesn't make Kawasaki the same now. Both built superior machines based on the rules at the time.
Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
I'm not surprised Bautista did so well in PI, he should still be in MotoGP tbh instead of bums like Abraham.
I've never been convinced by Bautista although I've never thought he was terrible. Certainly capable of a good result now and again, and certainly not in the Abraham category. His issue was that he was too inconsistent. He's has had his time in MotoGP, time for someone else to have a go. Although I'm sure that if he continues to impress in WSBK he'll get the odd wildcard in MotoGP or could replace Petrucci if the Italian fails to do well.

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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

500cc was loaded with manufacturers in the late 80s when WSBK was formed so it's natural Ducati went for the low-hanging fruit instead of swimming with the sharks plus it was a Cagiva decision anyway. Honda still held them in check before they seemingly had enough with the B-league and began to dominate in 500cc. The Honda/Yamaha rivalry was always the core and that never truly happened in WSBK which also helped Kawasaki to excel.
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Post by kals » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
500cc was loaded with manufacturers in the late 80s when WSBK was formed so it's natural Ducati went for the low-hanging fruit instead of swimming with the sharks plus it was a Cagiva decision anyway. Honda still held them in check before they seemingly had enough with the B-league and began to dominate in 500cc. The Honda/Yamaha rivalry was always the core and that never truly happened in WSBK which also helped Kawasaki to excel.
From your comments here and at T.B.K I get the impression you believe MotoGP is superior to WSBK. Do I have that right? If so, I’m interested to know why you feel that way.

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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

Due to investement from the manufacturers. Don't get me wrong but even they view MotoGP as the ultimate challenge unless some go after the low-hanging fruit. Sure, there was a time 500cc was on life support in terms of excitement but the switch to four-strokes hit the jackpot and we have the best era since the late 80s/early 90s there. Meanwhile Kawasaki is the only one who failed to overcome the MotoGP dogfight and pulled out to dominate the B-series. The fact that someone like Rea got openly rejected by MotoGP teams is the ultimate humiliation for the WSBK.
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Post by kals » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
Due to investement from the manufacturers. Don't get me wrong but even they view MotoGP as the ultimate challenge unless some go after the low-hanging fruit. Sure, there was a time 500cc was on life support in terms of excitement but the switch to four-strokes hit the jackpot and we have the best era since the late 80s/early 90s there. Meanwhile Kawasaki is the only one who failed to overcome the MotoGP dogfight and pulled out to dominate the B-series. The fact that someone like Rea got openly rejected by MotoGP teams is the ultimate humiliation for the WSBK.
I get what you're saying however I don't really agree and the timeline doesn't exactly support your point.

Kawasaki have been a mainstay of the WSBK since it's inception, either in works or semi-works capacity. Much like Honda. Honda have had on and off success whereas Kawasaki's success only started in 2014. In MotoGP they never really got it right following their entry into the four-stroke formula in 2002. They aren't alone though as Aprilia have continually struggled, come, gone and come again, Suzuki have never really done much plus pulled the plug and returned only recently, and Ducati have had their many ups and downs but have admittedly been the most successful (in recent times) outside of Yamaha and Honda. But in terms of Kawasaki withdrawing investment in MotoGP and then dominating the 'B-series' there is a big gap in that timeline. Kawasaki pulled out before the beginning of 2009 due to the global financial crisis, yet agreed to leave a semi-works supported bike in the series. As I mention above, they didn't start to succeed in WSBK for another 4-5 years.

As for MotoGP having it's best era since the 80's/early 90's, I struggle with that. Yes we've had some amazing seasons with phenomenal races. However there have also been stark periods (thanks Honda!) which required Dorna to reinvent MotoGP. 800's were awful and the Open | CRT formula was only introduced to bolster floundering field sizes.

I realise we're splitting hairs to a certain extent. Both are series are world championships, both have their stars, some riders have succeeded in both series, some riders are better WSBKers and other MotoGPers. Both series have defining features. To call one a 'B-series' though is disingenuous. That's like suggesting F1 is superior to Indycar.

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Post by ChiliFan » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
Honda still held them in check before they seemingly had enough with the B-league and began to dominate in 500cc. The Honda/Yamaha rivalry was always the core and that never truly happened in WSBK which also helped Kawasaki to excel.
This just isn't true. Honda's 500cc domination began in 1994, for a variety of reasons (mainly Doohan and the big-bang NSR, plus Rainey's accident in 93 and Schwantz's injuries and later retirement), which was the same year they launched their RC45 specifically to take down Ducati in WSBK. The Honda/Ducati Superbike rivalry was huge until the early 2000s and for the latter half of the 90s all four major Japanese manufacturers had their own fully supported WSBK teams, as did Ducati and later Aprilia - more works teams than 500cc had. And don't forget that the Suzuka 8 Hours was the race that mattered most to the Japanese firms at the time, and from 1994 onwards it was run to Superbike regs.

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Post by kals » 2 years ago

:agreepost:

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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

kals wrote:
2 years ago
Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
Due to investement from the manufacturers. Don't get me wrong but even they view MotoGP as the ultimate challenge unless some go after the low-hanging fruit. Sure, there was a time 500cc was on life support in terms of excitement but the switch to four-strokes hit the jackpot and we have the best era since the late 80s/early 90s there. Meanwhile Kawasaki is the only one who failed to overcome the MotoGP dogfight and pulled out to dominate the B-series. The fact that someone like Rea got openly rejected by MotoGP teams is the ultimate humiliation for the WSBK.
I get what you're saying however I don't really agree and the timeline doesn't exactly support your point.

Kawasaki have been a mainstay of the WSBK since it's inception, either in works or semi-works capacity. Much like Honda. Honda have had on and off success whereas Kawasaki's success only started in 2014. In MotoGP they never really got it right following their entry into the four-stroke formula in 2002. They aren't alone though as Aprilia have continually struggled, come, gone and come again, Suzuki have never really done much plus pulled the plug and returned only recently, and Ducati have had their many ups and downs but have admittedly been the most successful (in recent times) outside of Yamaha and Honda. But in terms of Kawasaki withdrawing investment in MotoGP and then dominating the 'B-series' there is a big gap in that timeline. Kawasaki pulled out before the beginning of 2009 due to the global financial crisis, yet agreed to leave a semi-works supported bike in the series. As I mention above, they didn't start to succeed in WSBK for another 4-5 years.

As for MotoGP having it's best era since the 80's/early 90's, I struggle with that. Yes we've had some amazing seasons with phenomenal races. However there have also been stark periods (thanks Honda!) which required Dorna to reinvent MotoGP. 800's were awful and the Open | CRT formula was only introduced to bolster floundering field sizes.

I realise we're splitting hairs to a certain extent. Both are series are world championships, both have their stars, some riders have succeeded in both series, some riders are better WSBKers and other MotoGPers. Both series have defining features. To call one a 'B-series' though is disingenuous. That's like suggesting F1 is superior to Indycar.
There's one huge difference though. MotoGP & WSBK has the same manufacturers competing whereas F1 & IndyCar do not. Honda only entered IndyCars after they've left F1. And Toyota entered when they weren't in F1 either. Suzuka 8 hours is still probably more important to Japanese than WSBK tbh given how many top names enter that race. I don't pretend to have a huge knowledge about the bikes but the Doohan dominance era was the 500cc low-point IMO. WSBK used to be the fun series with wild characters but not so much anymore. Now it's a series for cast-offs or riders too weak to make the MotoGP grade. Hell, even Moto2 seems a long shot.
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Post by kals » 2 years ago

Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
There's one huge difference though. MotoGP & WSBK has the same manufacturers competing whereas F1 & IndyCar do not. Honda only entered IndyCars after they've left F1. And Toyota entered when they weren't in F1 either. Suzuka 8 hours is still probably more important to Japanese than WSBK tbh given how many top names enter that race. I don't pretend to have a huge knowledge about the bikes but the Doohan dominance era was the 500cc low-point IMO. WSBK used to be the fun series with wild characters but not so much anymore. Now it's a series for cast-offs or riders too weak to make the MotoGP grade. Hell, even Moto2 seems a long shot.
The comparative between Indycar v F1 was made because they two highest global single seater series. Some people consider one to be superior to the other and vice versa. That's all. The rest of what you mention is irrelevant to the overall point.

As for WSBK being second rate and being a series for cast-offs or riders too weak to make MotoGP grade, well you're welcome to think that but that doesn't make it right. Because it isn't. Superbike racing, be it road or track is an entirely separate formula with it's own laddering series to the prototypes of MotoGP. A lot of riders have zero interest in getting to MotoGP, they want to ride superbikes, be challenged by Macau and / or TT. Does that make them weaker than Rossi or Marquez? Hell no.

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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

IndyCar was never in contention for the global series pinnacle other than maybe when Mansell made the jump. And any chance there was got killed by The Split.

I'd never take the current crop of WSBK riders over the field they had in the mid-90s.

Everyone's got their own taste, some people think endurance racing is the real #1 too.
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Post by Andy » 2 years ago

kals wrote:
2 years ago
Vassago wrote:
2 years ago
There's one huge difference though. MotoGP & WSBK has the same manufacturers competing whereas F1 & IndyCar do not. Honda only entered IndyCars after they've left F1. And Toyota entered when they weren't in F1 either. Suzuka 8 hours is still probably more important to Japanese than WSBK tbh given how many top names enter that race. I don't pretend to have a huge knowledge about the bikes but the Doohan dominance era was the 500cc low-point IMO. WSBK used to be the fun series with wild characters but not so much anymore. Now it's a series for cast-offs or riders too weak to make the MotoGP grade. Hell, even Moto2 seems a long shot.
The comparative between Indycar v F1 was made because they two highest global single seater series. Some people consider one to be superior to the other and vice versa. That's all. The rest of what you mention is irrelevant to the overall point.

As for WSBK being second rate and being a series for cast-offs or riders too weak to make MotoGP grade, well you're welcome to think that but that doesn't make it right. Because it isn't. Superbike racing, be it road or track is an entirely separate formula with it's own laddering series to the prototypes of MotoGP. A lot of riders have zero interest in getting to MotoGP, they want to ride superbikes, be challenged by Macau and / or TT. Does that make them weaker than Rossi or Marquez? Hell no.
You could take your penultimate sentence even further, if you leave Macau out and add races such as the Ulster GP, the North West 200 or the Southern 100, for example. While they all want to ride superbikes, they also race on a variety of machinery, such as superstocks, supersports, supertwins in the same meeting, sometimes for different teams, most often.
And it is this why I prefer road racing along with the fact that road racing doesn't take place along hermetically locked up paddocks. You can approach most of the lads during a meeting rather than having to pay extra for one hour of pitlane meet and greets, even these of the big (factory) teams. I'd call it leftovers of old times when one could enter more than one class and in much more welcoming paddocks. All it takes is a tent usually and you are in it (TT is a bit different there but the same approach, nonetheless). During the Manx GP of 2017 I even got into the price giving ceremonies and no one really questioned my presence. I sat next to Horst Saiger and team and behind me sat Dan Kneen. It is a different world altogether. So if you look for characters, you probably find them here.

Endurance racing with bikes is a lightly different matter but it is usually here where the road racers do the short circuits apart from those in BSB, that is. I believe, endurance kind of gives a light advantage to those who are used to race for about 2h (with the superbikes) around the most gruelling Course. Or something between 60 to 90min in the lower catagories. 1.5-2 laps at the TT and you have your average MotoGP race finished distance wise, about 2-3 TT laps for an entire WSB weekend.

I personally found WSB the most exciting, when it went to circuits like Sugo, Monza, Brands Hatch, Donington, Laguna Seca, and old Assen and the reason why I prefer BSB over both WSB and MotoGP these days. There's still this variety of circuits which are usually not blunt parking lots. From Donington to Brands Hatch, over to Thruxton, Oulton Park and Cadwell Park. This has very few to do with riders and machinery but with the challenge the aforementioned circuits have on offer.
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Post by Vassago » 2 years ago

Bautista 6/6. Some argy-bargy with Rea in Race 1 but it was over once he passed him.

I wonder when will Kawasaki issue a formal complaint about this :haha:
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Post by Andy » 2 years ago

:mrgreen: Yah lol
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