Motorsport Memorial updates

Post here if you come across a video or image that you would like identifying.
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erwin greven
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Re: Motorsport Memorial updates

Post by erwin greven » 2 months ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Michael Ferner wrote:
2 months ago
Bullshit. It's actually very simple: ethics. Don't do what you shouldn't do because you know it's wrong. Show that you have a spine. Walk tall. And don't defend like a nazi tag-along.
:agreepost:
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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

Motorsportrace wrote:
2 months ago
I was reading information about her some days ago.
I couldn't find pictures (obviously).
She was living alone in Milan (Via Spontini 3), her parents were on holidays (I think) in another region.
She went with his boyfriend, Aldo Pestalozzi, who was killed as well.
She was probably from Desenzano, and it appears she's still buried there.
According to a newspaper report, she was holding hands with her boyfriend, when Materassi went into the crowd.
They tried to escape, and separated, but were struck and killed. They found the bodies apart from each other.
Her body was "horrendously wounded", and she was identified by her work colleagues.
Very good. And now tell me how this is not death pornography: You really don't know shit about this girl, other than she died, and the circumstances thereof, yet you go through all of this trouble to not only find out these things for yourself, but to make them public to the world. Why does the world need to know about all this? Is it because you hate motor racing? Obviously not, you wouldn't be here if that were the case. Now, ask yourself this question, why does the world need to know? Why does the world need to know about Ida Cavoli?
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Post by erwin greven » 2 months ago

Some people are interested in this. Matter of taste (or lack of).
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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

Some people are interested in paedophilia, too. Just sayin'...
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

This is how journalists see it (we are not journalists; we are historians):

https://ethics.journalists.org/topics/w ... formation/
When should the names of people in the news be withheld?
[...]
Breaking news

News organizations that cover breaking news sometimes have the names of victims of crimes, accidents or disasters before authorities have notified their families. You might have names from neighbors, witnesses or even officials.

One position in such cases would be to withhold the names until authorities have released them. Another position would be to publish names as soon as you have them verified. A middle position might be to wait until authorities have released names in most cases, but make exceptions if a person is prominent, if authorities appear to be delaying release of names for no good reason, or if you learn from family that the closest relatives have been notified.

Factors to consider in deciding your position in these cases are newsworthiness, the impact of reporting a death incorrectly if your sources are wrong and whether you would want to learn of a loved one’s death through the media.
The authorities are neither journalists or historians. The authorities in question are in fact the lawgivers, and specifically the police.

The buck stops with them. If they had an automatic restraining order on such info, out of moral grounds implemented in the law, which could be argued there perhaps ought to be, the problem would disappear, altogether. It would be up to the families of the victims to release the information, or make their own memorials, public or otherwise. The law (or applied legislation) in this case inverts ethics, as they are obliged to release the information because of "public interest". The only ones protected by that concept are the media, who profit from it.
Whose decision to name names?

The decision to name people involved in certain situations is sometimes controlled by law, but more often by societal conventions. In some cases, journalists may even take a calculated risk in terms of the law if they believe that identifying someone is clearly to the public’s benefit.

It is interesting to consider the impact of the EU right to privacy convention and how that is affecting the freedom of expression in journalism. The other idea gaining ground in Europe especially is the “right to be forgotten.” How will that mesh with a permanent, online, easily accessible journalism?
It obviously won't, because societal conventions are different. If you doubt that, try taking a sledgehammer to the Mille Miglia Memorial, and see what happens. But it's supposedly gaining ground, even though there has never been a request to remove or anonymize information from the mmorg database? I didn't get that memo. I in fact don't believe it. There is to me a difference between the right of anonymity and the right to be forgotten, namely that the former applies to the living, and the latter the dead, but that is not necessarily the case.

https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/right-to-be-forgotten/

That is EU law. Note this above everything else:
The right to be forgotten is not unreservedly guaranteed. It is limited especially when colliding with the right of freedom of expression and information.
A catflap disclaimer. This phenomenon is everywhere in legal text, exceptions to the rule, which supposedly by contradiction confirms the rule, as it were. Simply put: the rights of the living versus those of the dead: the dead lose. So, it's back to the authorities, informing the media, informing the public, who then share the information, for whatever reason, under the same protection that the earlier links in the chain enjoy.

I feel it is very safe to say that this means there is nothing to be done about it this side of a gigantic paradigm shift in applied ethics, which in turn must come from society at large. Laws are very difficult to change.

So, if I'm a coward for not going on that crusade, then you are a hypocrite for not championing the cause yourself, in a way that actually matters. Get that sledgehammer out, go full SJW, and bash the Mille Miglia Memorial to smithereens. Tell the Caribinieri that you are protecting people's rights to be forgotten, and then become financially ruined and go to prison. While you serve your sentence, I suggest you write a piece on how you feel about the matter, and have it publicised. Then you'd have a case, by example. And the attention of the same public who evidently has no problem with the freedom of information. For perhaps a little while. And if it's a bestseller, you may be able to pay the fine for vandalism and your legal costs. Don't be expecting any donations from me.

I'm not empowered to delete or erase parts of the mmorg database, and this discussion would have been relevant 13 years ago, when we actually debated it, in the research group. I wasn't going to say more about this, but I won't be called spineless, and then compared to a paedophile, for something I did over 10 years ago, and I in fact never even entered such a case, nor did I ever compose any entry notes that could ever be described as "death porn", and I actually joined in some of the criticism of the methods carried out, and eventually left for reasons of personal ethics, which was all I could do. I stood very tall indeed, but couldn't make my case, but I do have a squeaky clean conscience, and King Progress does not even have one, clean or otherwise, and all the while Big Robot remains silent.
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Michael Ferner
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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

Jesper Hvid wrote:
2 months ago
This is how journalists see it (we are not journalists; we are historians):

blabla bla...
Another load of irrelevant bull. You're dodging the issue again by using those same tag-along tactics. Why can't you just for once take responsibility for your own actions? Why do you personally believe that the world needs to know about the death of Ida Cavoli?
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

I don't, necessarily, and I've nothing whatsoever to do with that. Zero mention in fact of any active FASTLANE members, in the source credits:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... =ct&n=1838

Perhaps you should talk to the people responsible for creating this entry, in the first place.
Michael Ferner wrote:Why can't you just for once take responsibility for your own actions?
What actions are they?
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

Your name is on the acknowledgement list at mmorg.

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/ackno ... .php?db=ct

Just to let you know - it must be morally unacceptable for you to be associated with such a disgraceful project.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
2 months ago
Very good. And now tell me how this is not death pornography: You really don't know shit about this girl, other than she died, and the circumstances thereof, yet you go through all of this trouble to not only find out these things for yourself, but to make them public to the world. Why does the world need to know about all this? Is it because you hate motor racing? Obviously not, you wouldn't be here if that were the case. Now, ask yourself this question, why does the world need to know? Why does the world need to know about Ida Cavoli?
You should define first what "death porn" supposedly is.

You're saying I'm making this kind of information "public to the world".
I'm not.
The information is already public.
Just go here:
https://www.archiviolastampa.it
Or here:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... irefox-b-d

I could understand your point if I went to Ida Cavoli's relatives, asked them for private information, then made it public.
It's not what I did.
Although I wouldn't agree with you.
I'd really like to know what was the name of "Michelini", who was killed as well in the crash.
If I could discover it, then I think I would send this information to mm.org, as well as here.
I think I would be doing him a favour. Because, even 91 years after the tragedy, he would still be remembered.

I'm looking for this kind of information because I find it interesting.

Another thing:
I'm posting this information to this forum. I know now its content can be seen through Google (it wasn't like that some time ago).
But I didn't go to a public square, and put up posters with "Ida Cavoli, 28 years old, died on 9/9/1928, ...", so that everybody could see it.
If someone finds this kind on information on this forum, it's because they wanted to know it.
I find it very difficult to come across it by mistake.

The world doesn't want to know about her? The world doesn't need to come here.

And, as I said: I can't think of anything wrong with what I'm doing.
Motorsportrace

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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

Everybody has sex. If you make it public "to the world" (meaning, to willingly attract the attention of people who are not involved), it's called pornography. Same with dying. Except in cases of "public interest" in the lives of deceased people, which is clearly not the case here. Neither you nor the public are interested in Ida Cavoli's life, only in her death. That's death pornography, easy to understand, innit?

You are making an efffort to make the information available to a wider audience, so yes, you are effectively making that information public to the world. Only a few million people can read Italian, billions can read English. But it's actually beside the point, because you are not responsible for what other people do, just for what you do, a concept which is surprisingly hard to get across here!

About "Michelini", rest assured that those who really knew him or her have long ago decided whether they want to remember him or her, so you're not doing anyone a "favour" (oh my, the hubris!). All you're going to do is make the name available to the other ten billion people in this world who have never heard of that person, and who will learn only about his or her gruesome end. Death pornography in its purest form.

Why do you want this "Michelini", or Ida Cavoli to be remembered? Why them? Why not Ida's little sister, Giuseppina - she's dead, too, why don't we need to remember her? Or their parents? Is it because they died of old age, lonely in bed? No blood splattering, and no twisted bodies? What about Ida's neighbours, in the Via Spontini 4, how did they die? What were their names? Shouldn't we remember them, too? Apparently, they're not worthy to be remembered, because they didn't die a public death. No reporters trying to paint the well known picture of the innocent bystander killed by an evil racing car - too bad!

If you find all that interesting, fine, but maybe you should see a doctor. And try being less naive when it comes to information on the internet - facebook and co. love people like you!
Last edited by Michael Ferner 2 months ago, edited 3 times in total.
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Michael Ferner
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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

Jesper Hvid wrote:
2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote:Why can't you just for once take responsibility for your own actions?
What actions are they?
I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of drug addicts with the attention span of a middle sized jay here - you waffle on, deflect and evade, and then ask about what we were talking in the first place. I suggest you read again what you wrote the last two or three pages. And:

Go easy on the scotch!!
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

Mmorg is a great website, and a true internet gem. Noone there, past or present, has anything whatsoever to be ashamed of, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with their activity, least of all in the ethical sense. Neither is there anything remotely unsavoury about supplying them with factual information. So, we will carry on, regardless of what you say, and I will now test my old login to see if it is still active, because you have convinced me that what we're doing on their behalf is absolutely and unquestionably the right thing to do. I'll see if there is a chance I might rejoin them, and then I'll devote more time to their site, and less to this one. You have the right to be forgotten, so goodbye.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

https://www.laprovincia.es/multimedia/v ... aguna.html

https://www.lavanguardia.com/motor/2019 ... o-ext.html

Aftermath of fatal accident yesterday in the VI. Rally Ciudad de La Laguna, in Tenerife, in which a 72-year old male spectator died.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

A fatal rally accident earlier this year from Argentina.

https://www.elesquiu.com/policiales/201 ... 14215.html

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=dk

There is an aftermath photo, and text in Spanish, including the name of the young victim, who apparently was driving with his father. Not quite sure I got that right.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

A fatal rally accident occurred earlier this year in Bolivia (videos, pics):

https://www.diez.bo/multideportivo/Acci ... -0025.html

https://correodelsur.com/deporte/201902 ... ecido.html

https://www.eldiario.net/noticias/2019/ ... n-en-oruro

https://redpatdigital.com/node/30452

https://www.facebook.com/ANFidesBolivia ... 404211837/

Esteban Eid hit and killed a spectator named Ramiro Arce Rodríguez, in the Rally Oruro.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 2 months ago

A young girl was killed 2 months ago in an autocross accident in Paraguay. Driver's name is José María Franco:

https://www.cadenadelsuritapua.com/pais ... -vivienda/

https://www.pressreader.com/paraguay/ex ... 3976382209

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIbDvf4KUr8
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