Motorsport Memorial updates

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Jesper Hvid
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Re: Motorsport Memorial updates

Post by Jesper Hvid » 1 month ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Nanni's lately updated me on every last unprocessed update I've done, so he caught up with the bombardment, and I've always been impressed with the man's staying power, so I believe I have no more obligations, in that respect. It's over to you lot from now on. You're doing far better than me, anyway.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 1 month ago

I'd be really glad if the spectators' names of the 1928 Monza tragedy were updated.
Here:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... irefox-b-d

They say Ida Cavoli was 28. They've read her grave, so the information must be correct.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 1 month ago

Jesper Hvid wrote:
1 month ago


Have a scotch. Have another scotch. Think about what you said, and then have another scotch. Then you'll see how absurd your statement is.
You may think it's absurd, but that doesn't mean it is. In fact, it's an effing disgrace. Perhaps go lightly on the Scotch yourself?
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 1 month ago

Ferner, can you answer me this: in your opinion, should Ida Cavoli's grave be removed? Should this kind of thing be erased: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Memorial_MM.jpg Your answers must be no and yes, as otherwise your previous statement would make no sense. The Mille Miglia memorial, for instance, would have to go. Cavoli's grave belongs to the family or persons who is paying for its maintenance - or at least so I assume. Technically, you own your own dead, as long as you pay for their graves, unless there is a particular reason for protecting the plot, because it is of historical or cultural importance, like e.g. Hans Christian Andersen's tomb (he died childless) in Copenhagen, which is paid for by the State. Noone asked him if that was ok with him, and none of his family survived him. Has anyone ever requested the Mille Miglia memorial be removed? It is technically not a grave, but it is in full public view. Even online.

If one of Cavoli's relatives ever wondered about what happened to her, and decided to do a bit of genealogy, what would in your opinion be the best situation for that researcher: a) that her fate remained a mystery; or b) that the researcher found the answer, however unpleasant? I think I know human nature quite well enough to safely conclude that the latter answer is the right one.

If the person doing the research went to a public library in Italy and went through the microfilm or digital scans, it would in all likelihood lead directly to the source. So how can she ever become anonymous? You'd have to destroy all records of the woman's existence, which is the exact opposite of what we're doing. It is more than probable noone would have ever heard of her, had she not died in the tragedy.

Now, if you type in her name and motorsportmemorial in the google search field, nothing comes up, leading you there. If you go to the site looking for her case entry, you'll obviously find it. Because you wish to do so, perhaps from your own research, or perhaps from the fact that google search gives one hit that leads to The Fastlane. Depending on what search words you used, you'd go straight to the CPdB, or to somewhere in the crash-related topics. All we did was provide a short-cut, saving people's time.

If you believe that the spectator/by-passer category should be taken offline for moral reasons, then you arrive at the opposite moral dilemma of having to kill all these people, all over again. It will never happen. I don't believe there has been a single case in all our time together, gathering this info, where a victim's relatives requested the entry be deleted because of what you call the right of anonymity, and no such thing exists, in this world, I'm afraid. The only moral problem I see with mmorg is that of recent cases. I believe this was taken care of, and no case of a recently dead person is being included until the passage of a certain amount of time, or mourning period. Anything else would be downright ghoulish, so that problem was solved, at least it was when I was a PowerUser.

If motorsportmemorial were required to remove the types of cases you mention, then the whole project would be quite pointless, and might as well be taken down forever. I know of a few persons who'd like to see that happen, as we were attacked 10+ years ago by someone who thought the project was a disgrace, and death pornography, and whatnot. https://roadracingquestions.wordpress.c ... rnography/ We simply ignored him, as he came across as a deranged fusspot. The result was, we discussed inamongst ourselves where the line would have to be drawn, but we never quite agreed, and I would assume there are still entries with pretty irrelevant information about specific injuries, as well as biographical notes of a very personal nature, which probably shouldn't be there, either. Erskine Kelly who was in my "camp" at mmorg, once said they were occasionally bordering on the libellious, and I had to agree. Kelly left in anger, and I just left. I've nothing to do directly with the project now for quite a few years.

What you propose is a wholesale reconstruction of a project that has been ongoing for more than 50 years http://www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri78.htm , because of your personal opinion. Hardly anybody agrees with you. Such revision would require an effort that is no longer possible, as the team involved has now been all but dissolved. So, I'm afraid you are asking the impossible.

I would tend to agree with you inasmuch as we ought to accept the wishes of relatives to respect the anonymity of deceased spectators, but your point is very moot, indeed, as no such wishes have been forthcoming, EVER. I understand you're very emotional about it, but there is in fact nothing we can do, unless we decide to close the whole thing down, and that is not the general opinion. Personally, I have no moral scruples in this respect, whatsoever. If I had, I'd might as well pack it in, and there goes 15+ years of work. That's just not on, sorry.

There is another way, however.

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=12220

The names of the victims of this recent tragedy have never been disclosed. The reason for this, which is very unusual, can only be that the families wished it to be so. Thus, they shall remain anonymous, and if I ever by some strange coincidence should learn their names, I shall keep that information to myself, as that must be what the ones left behind wanted, because the names weren't made public.

That's all I can do, to respect your feelings on this matter. I'm glad you stated them.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 1 month ago

Jesper, thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful response, but all you're effectively saying is "if I don't do it, somebody else will", and frankly, having grown up in postwar Germany, I am sick and tired of that "excuse". Your argument about no one ever complaining is a non-starter, too - there are, no doubt, many people in this world who are deranged enough to do "anything" to become "famous" (think Breivik, as an extreme example), and would probably accept the same for the memory of their loved ones, but I'm sure they're still a minority, and that the majority is just too embarrassed or too intelligent to draw further attention. Even more so, just one single person objecting is already enough to induce a moral imperative to abstain from this practice, especially in the age of the internet when any information once divulged will become instantly and irrevocably part of the public domain.

There are many things wrong with Motorsport Memorial, some you can fix, and some you can't, but overall I have always supported the cause and the project. At this point, however, I have to draw a line - publishing names of deceased spectators is just sick, and there's aboslutely nothing to justify their inclusion.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 1 month ago

I've always seen including the name of spectators as a "sign" of respect.
I would actually be glad if, supposing I had a relative who was killed by a racing car, he was remembered this way.
I can't see anything wrong, really.
But, as for many things, I could change my mind sometime, who knows.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 1 month ago

Respectful would be to leave them in peace.

What are memorials for? We remember soldiers for their service, politicians, scientists, artists and athletes for their fame, or for special achievements. Why would you want to be remembered for accidentally standing in the way of an out of control racing car? Beats me.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 1 month ago

This is why I called it a "three-scotch problem" (cf. Sherlock Holmes, and the "three-pipe problem", and I don't smoke, see...).

First drink, I pondered the nature and size of the problem, 2nd one, I thought about a solution that would cause as little damage as possible, and during the last one, I realised I couldn't come up with anything truly satisfactory in the way of one. There is none, except for this:

Via the legal system. You need to win a court case, prohibiting the publication of the names of these unfortunate individuals, not for their sake, as the dead don't care, but for the sake of the ones left behind. I do recognize and acknowledge the moral problem. That would be your leverage. If this is even possible, then you have before you the tremendous task of having to probably sue every single website, or similar, who's mentioning these names, in order to force them to remove them, with the legal ruling in hand. And you'd still be acting on behalf of people whose feelings about the matter you cannot possibly possess as much as an inkling. Noone will be willing to help you perform this magician's trick, which is a token gesture, until you have the power of the law on your side. Let's say a compromise is reached, whereby the persons involved have their names and personal data removed, but not the actual instance, as an actual event in motorsport history. Would that be acceptable? It is a form of anonymity, but it would not be stopping anyone from finding the missing data, if they actually cared enough, as long as the info is still found online, somewhere. Which is how we have been piecing all this together, in the first place. I cannot see how it's possible either, to contact the relatives of the victims, to obtain their permission to maintain the online status of these instances. THEY will have to come forth. And THEN the problem may be fixed. It will probably only take one stricken family to reach adequacy in the eyes of the law. I don't see how else it can be done, frankly. YOU will have to start a website with an appeal to these people, and then the case may be brought to trial. The absurd part comes in at the point where YOU will have to sue PTRACER and the Brazilian guy who owns mmorg, and all the news websites, and all the motorsport forums, and probably google and youtube, and the lot. You may even have to prepare yourself to sue the United States government, over issues to do with the 1st Amendment.

You'll not necessarily look like a fool, but you will definitely be treated as one.

I can't help you, it's your war. I'd say you've already lost, and the case is hopeless. But I've suggested a way. A way to kick me in the ass, actually. I don't normally do that. But I've nothing further to say, and I bear you no grudge. If you somehow manage to turn this around, I'll accept the results without further ado.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 1 month ago

Bullshit. It's actually very simple: ethics. Don't do what you shouldn't do because you know it's wrong. Show that you have a spine. Walk tall. And don't defend like a nazi tag-along.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 1 month ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
1 month ago
Why would you want to be remembered for accidentally standing in the way of an out of control racing car? Beats me.
They've done it in my country when a train exploded, killing 32 people (in 2009).

During a concert, done as a "tribute" to those people, they showed photos of them on a big screen.

I can't see anything wrong with that.
It's a way to remember those people.

Newspapers even report the names of people who get killed in traffic crashes, accidents at work, or even when they get murdered.

Personally, I wouldn't be unhappy if, supposing an out-of-control racing car hit and killed me, my name were on various racing websites, stating I was killed in that crash.

I can see your point if we talk about posting photos of deceased spectators.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 1 month ago

A "tribute concert"??? What sort of "tribute" were they paying to victims of a train accident? :huh: Maybe it's a language thing, but surely that was a benefit concert, which is something entirely different.

Once again, it's not about erasing the memory of people who die in these sort of accidents, or "to kill them all over again" :roll: - that's entirely in the hands of those who knew them while still alive, and not really your or my concern. But a memorial is something very different: a stone, a plaque, an event or a website, something done by people to remind others of an individual who did something worthwhile in the opinion of the initiator*. Spectators of a sporting event do nothing worthwhile, it's just a pastime - you don't put up memorials for people who die while mowing their lawn, or on a day out, on a hiking trip (unless they have done something worth remembering while still alive). To expose people's names just because they died in a public incident, without showing any interest in their lives is a ghoulish thing to do, nothing else.

* It could also be a reminder of a catastrophic incident in which "ordinary" people die, but in those cases the victims remain anonymous - if the memorial is in good tate, that is! And yes, (some) newspapers overstep the marks of good taste on a regular basis - let us not use that as a guideline!

So, tell me about Ida Cavoli - what was she like? Was she pretty? Did she have a favourite driver, or was she there rooting for Alfa Romeo? Did she go alone, or did she have company? Her husband? Boy friend? A colleague from work? Where did she work, or was she a homemaker? Do you even know where she lived?
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Post by Motorsportrace » 1 month ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
1 month ago
A "tribute concert"??? What sort of "tribute" were they paying to victims of a train accident? :huh: Maybe it's a language thing, but surely that was a benefit concert, which is something entirely different.
Yes, it was probably something like that. I can't remember exactly.
Michael Ferner wrote:
1 month ago
Once again, it's not about erasing the memory of people who die in these sort of accidents, or "to kill them all over again" :roll: - that's entirely in the hands of those who knew them while still alive, and not really your or my concern. But a memorial is something very different: a stone, a plaque, an event or a website, something done by people to remind others of an individual who did something worthwhile in the opinion of the initiator*. Spectators of a sporting event do nothing worthwhile, it's just a pastime - you don't put up memorials for people who die while mowing their lawn, or on a day out, on a hiking trip (unless they have done something worth remembering while still alive). To expose people's names just because they died in a public incident, without showing any interest in their lives is a ghoulish thing to do, nothing else.

* It could also be a reminder of a catastrophic incident in which "ordinary" people die, but in those cases the victims remain anonymous - if the memorial is in good tate, that is! And yes, (some) newspapers overstep the marks of good taste on a regular basis - let us not use that as a guideline!
As I said, I can see your point, but I can't see anything wrong with it, really.
Even if the deceased people didn't do anything worthwhile for the sport, why not remember them? Even by their names?
Remembering only the driver who eventually died, and not the spectators involved, would be much worse, I think.
Michael Ferner wrote:
1 month ago
So, tell me about Ida Cavoli - what was she like? Was she pretty? Did she have a favourite driver, or was she there rooting for Alfa Romeo? Did she go alone, or did she have company? Her husband? Boy friend? A colleague from work? Where did she work, or was she a homemaker? Do you even know where she lived?
I was reading information about her some days ago.
I couldn't find pictures (obviously).
She was living alone in Milan (Via Spontini 3), her parents were on holidays (I think) in another region.
She went with his boyfriend, Aldo Pestalozzi, who was killed as well.
She was probably from Desenzano, and it appears she's still buried there.
According to a newspaper report, she was holding hands with her boyfriend, when Materassi went into the crowd.
They tried to escape, and separated, but were struck and killed. They found the bodies apart from each other.
Her body was "horrendously wounded", and she was identified by her work colleagues.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 1 month ago

And, according to this book, which describes in detail the deaths of the 5 spectators from Bergamo (Mario Nessi, Luigi Nessi, Luigi Zanoni, Felice Nava and Mauro Broletti):

https://books.google.it/books?id=rB3CAg ... 22&f=false

The 4th spectator's surname was "Nava", and not "Nara", since there's some confusion about it.
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Post by hollie3sa » 1 month ago

Sedre wrote:
1 month ago
Thanks for information!

That means that Hoffmann died on October 13 or 20 as Klingenring hillclimb was held on second or third week of October.

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Post by Sedre » 1 month ago

hollie3sa wrote:
1 month ago
Sedre wrote:
1 month ago
Thanks for information!

That means that Hoffmann died on October 13 or 20 as Klingenring hillclimb was held on second or third week of October.

Image
Great! If you manage to find any information about Hoffmann and his accident, please let me know.

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Post by erwin greven » 1 month ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
1 month ago
Bullshit. It's actually very simple: ethics. Don't do what you shouldn't do because you know it's wrong. Show that you have a spine. Walk tall. And don't defend like a nazi tag-along.
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