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Motorsport Memorial updates

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Sedre
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Re: Motorsport Memorial updates

Post by Sedre » 6 months ago

Latest post of the previous page:

PTRACER wrote:
6 months ago
JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
While we're here, it seems difficult for Europeans to understand that there are differences between rallying and karting in the U.S. and how they think of it in Europe.
Huh? I have never seen anyone who has failed to make that distinction...
I'm the one who did not know the situation with American rallying. Honestly, I believed that rallies simply were not popular in comparison to other car racing categories in the US and for a long time they had amateur rallies organized by local sports car clubs.

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Post by Sedre » 6 months ago

JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
Karting: Not all "karting" accidents in the U.S. are of the competitive karting type, sometimes it's simply a "go-kart ride" or a youngster fooling around with a home built motorized cart. There is competitive karting in the U.S., but there are also "go-kart rides" at miniature golf courses, fairs and many other places that aren't any formal competition of any kind. For example, a venue named "Bananas Fun Park" gives a clue as to what type of "karting" took place :smiley:
Speaking of karting, I'll browse through MM.org and pick out some cases as well as some other deaths, which I did not include yet, for discussion. There are some fatalities which probably happened during "fun rides" so I have big doubts about them being in MM.org. We'll probably discuss it on Friday or later this week due to my workload (I did not even mark in my Google sheets database cases which I made and which are already online).

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Michael Ferner
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Post by Michael Ferner » 6 months ago

JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote:
7 months ago
The "rules" are probably that you need to enter sensationalist nonsense such as "... his wife had a premonition that he was going to die and tried to persuade him not to race..." or "... he was going to retire/drive in the Indy 500 following the race he died in..." :rolleyes:
Michael, Michael, Michael (where's the head shaking emoji?) :insulted:

If you see something like you describe, I guarantee it was not written by an American editor at MM.

I've explained to you before that it's not Americans that have made those type of entries, but a few Europeans who are utterly unfamiliar with U.S. oval racing and the tropes trotted out by U.S. newspapers of the day, which they seem to take all quite literally. MM's American editors have done credible to outstanding work, doing none of the sensationalist nonsense.

For one, I appreciate that Americans are finally getting to do the U.S. entries at MM, which also entails a lot of clean up work of the sort of things you described. I also wish more of the entries had names signed to the work, so perhaps you might see the differences :wink:
Jim, thanks for chipping in, and also for your guiding help regarding Karting and Rallyes in the US. Notice I didn't say anything about Americans writing those entries. We both know who the main perpetrators are, don't we? :wink:
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Post by hollie3sa » 6 months ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
6 months ago
JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote:
7 months ago
The "rules" are probably that you need to enter sensationalist nonsense such as "... his wife had a premonition that he was going to die and tried to persuade him not to race..." or "... he was going to retire/drive in the Indy 500 following the race he died in..." :rolleyes:
Michael, Michael, Michael (where's the head shaking emoji?) :insulted:

If you see something like you describe, I guarantee it was not written by an American editor at MM.

I've explained to you before that it's not Americans that have made those type of entries, but a few Europeans who are utterly unfamiliar with U.S. oval racing and the tropes trotted out by U.S. newspapers of the day, which they seem to take all quite literally. MM's American editors have done credible to outstanding work, doing none of the sensationalist nonsense.

For one, I appreciate that Americans are finally getting to do the U.S. entries at MM, which also entails a lot of clean up work of the sort of things you described. I also wish more of the entries had names signed to the work, so perhaps you might see the differences :wink:
Jim, thanks for chipping in, and also for your guiding help regarding Karting and Rallyes in the US. Notice I didn't say anything about Americans writing those entries. We both know who the main perpetrators are, don't we? :wink:
The French? As usual?

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Post by JThur01 » 6 months ago

Sedre wrote:
6 months ago
PTRACER wrote:
6 months ago
JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
While we're here, it seems difficult for Europeans to understand that there are differences between rallying and karting in the U.S. and how they think of it in Europe.
Huh? I have never seen anyone who has failed to make that distinction...
I'm the one who did not know the situation with American rallying. Honestly, I believed that rallies simply were not popular in comparison to other car racing categories in the US and for a long time they had amateur rallies organized by local sports car clubs.
No worries Andrei, you are hardly alone in that, and it isn't the first time I'd run into it. It was a problem years ago at MM. We've had other submissions along those lines.

You are correct that rallying (competitive stage rallying) isn't nearly as popular in the U.S., and that the U.S. had amateur rallies for many years, but the amateur rallies were of the time-speed-distance or regularity type of rally, done just for "fun." Most on the list were through work-related clubs or non-racing clubs.

That the first competitive stage rally racing in the U.S. I'm aware of was in 1969, and that there was no formally sanctioned series until 1973 is quite telling, and a good rule of thumb.
Last edited by JThur01 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JThur01 » 6 months ago

Sedre wrote:
6 months ago
JThur01 wrote:
6 months ago
Karting: Not all "karting" accidents in the U.S. are of the competitive karting type, sometimes it's simply a "go-kart ride" or a youngster fooling around with a home built motorized cart. There is competitive karting in the U.S., but there are also "go-kart rides" at miniature golf courses, fairs and many other places that aren't any formal competition of any kind. For example, a venue named "Bananas Fun Park" gives a clue as to what type of "karting" took place :smiley:
Speaking of karting, I'll browse through MM.org and pick out some cases as well as some other deaths, which I did not include yet, for discussion. There are some fatalities which probably happened during "fun rides" so I have big doubts about them being in MM.org. We'll probably discuss it on Friday or later this week due to my workload (I did not even mark in my Google sheets database cases which I made and which are already online).
Andrei, I should add, I don't think there are nearly as many karting on the list as there was with rallying. And, again, your submissions are hardly the first along those lines.

There was one Jim Michels found while working on Ohio entries that was clearly a recreational karting incident at a municipal park ride. He also found one in Indiana that was simply a child on a motorized cart that crashed at a business. Again, we've dealt we those sort of entries all along, you aren't doing anything new or different in that regard :smiley:

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Post by Sedre » 4 months ago

@hollie3sa

I need your help (again) with translation from French for this case:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=13629

Here's audio from INA Archives (there is no footage of the accident, only news report, so I did not sent video to mattia2): https://mega.nz/file/XKpE0BTB#rFYenCxYG ... N_jL97n7OY

As I understood from last words, accident happened during round of some championship.

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Post by hollie3sa » 4 months ago

Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
@hollie3sa

I need your help (again) with translation from French for this case:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=13629

Here's audio from INA Archives (there is no footage of the accident, only news report, so I did not sent video to mattia2): https://mega.nz/file/XKpE0BTB#rFYenCxYG ... N_jL97n7OY

As I understood from last words, accident happened during round of some championship.
It's really hard to understand due to the background noise. They say that the competitors did not start the final (round? run? maybe ("la finale")) as an expression of grief ("en signe de deuil").
Then it goes on with 'Bining qui prometait beaucoup' (=Bining, which promised much) - But I can't make out the rest of the sentence, neither the sense nor the words. They mention the "Championnat de France" aka the French Championship. But it's unclear to me whether the run actually counted towards the championship or not. The thing is: It sounds as if they say: "[...] pas pour le championnat de France" with "pas" being the second part of "ne ... pas" as the French version of negative. But I'm not sure since the critical part is partially incomprehensible for me.

tl;dr: I can't give you a conclusive translation. Will try again later.



Maybe some native French speaker can help us?
@ReneLotus: Don't you speak French?

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Post by Sedre » 4 months ago

hollie3sa wrote:
4 months ago
Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
@hollie3sa

I need your help (again) with translation from French for this case:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=13629

Here's audio from INA Archives (there is no footage of the accident, only news report, so I did not sent video to mattia2): https://mega.nz/file/XKpE0BTB#rFYenCxYG ... N_jL97n7OY

As I understood from last words, accident happened during round of some championship.
It's really hard to understand due to the background noise. They say that the competitors did not start the final (round? run? maybe ("la finale")) as an expression of grief ("en signe de deuil").
Then it goes on with 'Bining qui prometait beaucoup' (=Bining, which promised much) - But I can't make out the rest of the sentence, neither the sense nor the words. They mention the "Championnat de France" aka the French Championship. But it's unclear to me whether the run actually counted towards the championship or not. The thing is: It sounds as if they say: "[...] pas pour le championnat de France" with "pas" being the second part of "ne ... pas" as the French version of negative. But I'm not sure since the critical part is partially incomprehensible for me.

tl;dr: I can't give you a conclusive translation. Will try again later.



Maybe some native French speaker can help us?
@ReneLotus: Don't you speak French?
Well, it's kinda problematic to record from my monitor microphone without any noise. Still, thanks.

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Post by hollie3sa » 4 months ago

Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
hollie3sa wrote:
4 months ago
Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
@hollie3sa

I need your help (again) with translation from French for this case:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=13629

Here's audio from INA Archives (there is no footage of the accident, only news report, so I did not sent video to mattia2): https://mega.nz/file/XKpE0BTB#rFYenCxYG ... N_jL97n7OY

As I understood from last words, accident happened during round of some championship.
It's really hard to understand due to the background noise. They say that the competitors did not start the final (round? run? maybe ("la finale")) as an expression of grief ("en signe de deuil").
Then it goes on with 'Bining qui prometait beaucoup' (=Bining, which promised much) - But I can't make out the rest of the sentence, neither the sense nor the words. They mention the "Championnat de France" aka the French Championship. But it's unclear to me whether the run actually counted towards the championship or not. The thing is: It sounds as if they say: "[...] pas pour le championnat de France" with "pas" being the second part of "ne ... pas" as the French version of negative. But I'm not sure since the critical part is partially incomprehensible for me.

tl;dr: I can't give you a conclusive translation. Will try again later.



Maybe some native French speaker can help us?
@ReneLotus: Don't you speak French?
Well, it's kinda problematic to record from my monitor microphone without any noise. Still, thanks.
I'm certain this has nothing to do with your microphone. The 'cracking' in the original file is the problem.
I'm assuming you can't link the original file in the INA archives since it's protected/hidden?

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Post by Sedre » 4 months ago

hollie3sa wrote:
4 months ago
Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
hollie3sa wrote:
4 months ago
Sedre wrote:
4 months ago
@hollie3sa

I need your help (again) with translation from French for this case:

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus ... ct&n=13629

Here's audio from INA Archives (there is no footage of the accident, only news report, so I did not sent video to mattia2): https://mega.nz/file/XKpE0BTB#rFYenCxYG ... N_jL97n7OY

As I understood from last words, accident happened during round of some championship.
It's really hard to understand due to the background noise. They say that the competitors did not start the final (round? run? maybe ("la finale")) as an expression of grief ("en signe de deuil").
Then it goes on with 'Bining qui prometait beaucoup' (=Bining, which promised much) - But I can't make out the rest of the sentence, neither the sense nor the words. They mention the "Championnat de France" aka the French Championship. But it's unclear to me whether the run actually counted towards the championship or not. The thing is: It sounds as if they say: "[...] pas pour le championnat de France" with "pas" being the second part of "ne ... pas" as the French version of negative. But I'm not sure since the critical part is partially incomprehensible for me.

tl;dr: I can't give you a conclusive translation. Will try again later.



Maybe some native French speaker can help us?
@ReneLotus: Don't you speak French?
Well, it's kinda problematic to record from my monitor microphone without any noise. Still, thanks.
I'm certain this has nothing to do with your microphone. The 'cracking' in the original file is the problem.
I'm assuming you can't link the original file in the INA archives since it's protected/hidden?
I linked it as one of sources in MM actually: https://www.i*n*a*m*e*d*i*a*p*r*o.com/notice/NYC8908163252, but this is full program while part about autocross is about 30 seconds. Also, as I have borrowed account in INA Archives from @Motorsportrace, I can watch it; I don't know if it could be watched without account.

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Post by ReneLotus » 4 months ago

My French isn't optimal, but this is roughly what I managed to make of it:

A car missed/crashed in a bend and hit two people, killing one of them. The trials had started well, but after the accident the drivers decided not to start in the final.

The last bit I'm not sure about, but I guess the results would not count towards the French championship.

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Post by Sedre » 3 months ago

@PTRACER

I need your knowledge of Japanese language and pronunciation.
How exactly is this name translated?
大竹厚明

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Post by Michael Ferner » 3 months ago

Family name is Otake with a long "o", sometimes spelled Ohtake or Outake. Not sure about the personal name, the last kanji means "bright" and is sometimes used in names such as Akira. The first kanji of the personal name means "thick", and is sometimes used as Atsushi, but Japanese usually don't have two personal names - maybe it's a nick? A quick google shows up a Corean name Ho Ming/Hu Myong... Hm.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 3 months ago

Okay, a bit of googling reveals this mmorg file: http://motorsportmemorial.org/focus.php?db=ct&n=8079, so Komei Otake it could be, although I see that mostly spelled 孝明 (as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koumei_Nakamura or https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dmei). Japanese personal names can be somewhat idiosyncratic, however. Could also be Atsuaki Otake.
Last edited by Michael Ferner 3 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sedre » 3 months ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
3 months ago
Okay, a bit of googling reveals this mmorg file: http://motorsportmemorial.org/focus.php?db=ct&n=8079, so Komei Otake it could be, although I see that mostly spelled 孝明 (as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koumei_Nakamura or https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dmei). Japanese personal names can be somewhat idiosyncratic, however.
Yes, I'm trying to find the correct spelling of this co-driver's name as I want to correct his page on Motorsport Memorial.

It's either Koumei Ootake or Ootake Atsuaki or something like that.

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