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Morality and the CPdB

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Morality and the CPdB

Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

Motorsportrace wrote:
4 months ago
Very bad image of Reinhold Roth in the hospital after his atrocious crash at the 1990 Yugoslavian 250cc Grand Prix (FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix) with Darren Milner and Alex Crivillé:

***WARNING***

https://static.az-cdn.ch/__ip/UkJme_Ox8 ... 2-16x9-far

The same image from Shutterstock:
https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm ... 72313a.jpg

***WARNING***

He never fully recovered, and now is in a state of a 4 years old child.
:sorrow:

There is something about this image I don't "like". Is it possible to keep it off the CPdB?
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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
Motorsportrace wrote:
4 months ago
Very bad image of Reinhold Roth in the hospital after his atrocious crash at the 1990 Yugoslavian 250cc Grand Prix (FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix) with Darren Milner and Alex Crivillé:

***WARNING***

https://static.az-cdn.ch/__ip/UkJme_Ox8 ... 2-16x9-far

The same image from Shutterstock:
https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm ... 72313a.jpg

***WARNING***

He never fully recovered, and now is in a state of a 4 years old child.
:sorrow:

There is something about this image I don't "like". Is it possible to keep it off the CPdB?
I find it very disturbing.
But... If we create the entry, we must include it.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 2 months ago

"must"?
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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
2 months ago
"must"?
The CPDB is the "Crash Photos Database", excluding pictures from it would be against its "nature".

There are worse pictures in it, and Roth actually survived the crash (he's disabled, I know).

As I said, I find that picture very disturbing.
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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

I feel as a matter of respect we should not include it. Same with the photos of the marshal being run over by a JCB in Canada. I really want to delete those.
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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
I feel as a matter of respect we should not include it. Same with the photos of the marshal being run over by a JCB in Canada. I really want to delete those.
I dont't really know...
I would not touch them.

Else, we should delete a lot of the pictures that are in the CPDB (marshal/spectators fatalities, ...).

And these entries as well:
http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... itid1=1166
http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=135
http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=142 (this one, especially)

I'd really like to know what the other members think about it.

@hollie3sa
@Sedre
@DaleJuniorFan
@Jesper Hvid

This old reply, by Jesper, might be appropriate:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2024&p=278613#p278613
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Post by Sedre » 2 months ago

Let's approach this issue logically.

We (actually it's weird of me to call "we" as I did not make any change in CPDB) are called Crash Photos Database. Crash Photos. As it is written on its main page it is "intended to be the most complete catalogue of motorsport crash photos ever created". What is implied as "crash"? Accident itself and its exact aftermath. So the moment of accident falls under this definition, photos of accidents second and minutes later which were made on place of accident are also eligible - because it's "crash". And while maybe it's not correct from an ethical point of view, pictures of people injured/killed in accidents on its place falls under the definition of "crash photos", because they show the results of the accident.

However, that about pictures of wrecks outside the track (i.e. Erich Bode's car is located in a museum) and the more important - photos of injured/deceased persons in hospital or during funerals. That's a hard question. My opinion on this problem - wrecks outside the track are eligible as they usually still show damage from crashes without repair, so it can be defined as "crash photo". But injured or deceased people outside the place of accident in my opinion are not eligible. It's not just about bad taste to show injured or deceased people as it. If a wreck happened a long time ago still could show something about the accident itself, the deceased person in the casket can show only the deceased person in the casket. Even a slightly injured person in hospital in my opinion only shows the condition of the injured person after a said accident. As we (weird feelings once again) are set the goal is to provide information of accidents through catalogs of crash photos and text which are written by ourselves or borrowed from Motorsport Memorial, why do we need to show that happened in hospitals, churches or cemeteries, if we can simply write that this person was injured or this person died as result of crash?

About Jesper's post - we recently have discussion in our private Motorsport Memorial group about one certain case which was about one certain driver who probably commited suicide during race when he was investigated by police after accusions of sexual assault (said driver worked school teacher). From my point of view - when you take a goal of researching and recording something, you create criteria and you're acting in the borders of these criteria; anything else is just a fact. In MM.org these criteria for drivers are written there: http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/criteria.php?db=ct but in short - accidents happened during a legal event or during public roads tests when they were considered as normal practice (in Europe - until 1940; in Argentina - until 1970); who was a victim himself is only a fact which is described in text. Racing drivers are still just a people and there are convicted criminals, like Riseley-Pritchard, Francis Mariani, Christopher Wilder, Pablo Escobar, Klaus Walz and others. And if you are going to create a racing driver database (for example), it does not matter how atrocious their crimes were - they're still should be included; if your database provide biographies when you'll write that Christopher Wilder was mostly known as Beauty Queen Killer who also was a race driver participated in IMSA with links to sources about his criminal career and his racing results. If your database provides only racing results when it is horrifically easy - Chris Wilder (Christopher Bernard Wilder) *13.03.1945 †13.04.1984 - Race results/Raced cars/etc involved with race statistics. That's all.

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Post by Sedre » 2 months ago

If someone does not want to read all this text - I'm voting for removal of all photos from CPDB which show people in hospital or cemetery. Photos of injured/deceased people in place of accident are eligible despite how bad they are.

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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

Sedre wrote:
2 months ago
Let's approach this issue logically.

We (actually it's weird of me to call "we" as I did not make any change in CPDB) are called Crash Photos Database. Crash Photos. As it is written on its main page it is "intended to be the most complete catalogue of motorsport crash photos ever created". What is implied as "crash"? Accident itself and its exact aftermath. So the moment of accident falls under this definition, photos of accidents second and minutes later which were made on place of accident are also eligible - because it's "crash". And while maybe it's not correct from an ethical point of view, pictures of people injured/killed in accidents on its place falls under the definition of "crash photos", because they show the results of the accident.

However, that about pictures of wrecks outside the track (i.e. Erich Bode's car is located in a museum) and the more important - photos of injured/deceased persons in hospital or during funerals. That's a hard question. My opinion on this problem - wrecks outside the track are eligible as they usually still show damage from crashes without repair, so it can be defined as "crash photo". But injured or deceased people outside the place of accident in my opinion are not eligible. It's not just about bad taste to show injured or deceased people as it. If a wreck happened a long time ago still could show something about the accident itself, the deceased person in the casket can show only the deceased person in the casket. Even a slightly injured person in hospital in my opinion only shows the condition of the injured person after a said accident. As we (weird feelings once again) are set the goal is to provide information of accidents through catalogs of crash photos and text which are written by ourselves or borrowed from Motorsport Memorial, why do we need to show that happened in hospitals, churches or cemeteries, if we can simply write that this person was injured or this person died as result of crash?

About Jesper's post - we recently have discussion in our private Motorsport Memorial group about one certain case which was about one certain driver who probably commited suicide during race when he was investigated by police after accusions of sexual assault (said driver worked school teacher). From my point of view - when you take a goal of researching and recording something, you create criteria and you're acting in the borders of these criteria; anything else is just a fact. In MM.org these criteria for drivers are written there: http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/criteria.php?db=ct but in short - accidents happened during a legal event or during public roads tests when they were considered as normal practice (in Europe - until 1940; in Argentina - until 1970); who was a victim himself is only a fact which is described in text. Racing drivers are still just a people and there are convicted criminals, like Riseley-Pritchard, Francis Mariani, Christopher Wilder, Pablo Escobar, Klaus Walz and others. And if you are going to create a racing driver database (for example), it does not matter how atrocious their crimes were - they're still should be included; if your database provide biographies when you'll write that Christopher Wilder was mostly known as Beauty Queen Killer who also was a race driver participated in IMSA with links to sources about his criminal career and his racing results. If your database provides only racing results when it is horrifically easy - Chris Wilder (Christopher Bernard Wilder) *13.03.1945 †13.04.1984 - Race results/Raced cars/etc involved with race statistics. That's all.
Thanks for the reply, it's very interesting.

First of all...
It's the "Crash Photos Database", but, inside it, there are some exceptions:

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/cras ... itid1=5217
This is a spin, not a crash, and I believe it was entered by PTRACER himself;

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/cras ... itid1=1924
This is a crash, but not really a "race" crash.

So, I think first we should decide what should go into the CPDB and what shouldn't.

For example, PTRACER already said that fires without a crash should not go into the CPDB (I don't agree, but it's not a problem).

Then...

I think that a photo of somebody after an accident (in the hospital, in his home, at his funeral) actually should be eligible (they're usually very bad, I know):
Why?
Because they show the consequence of the crash.
I know what you mean: a wrecked car can still show something about the crash (how it happened, how violent the crash was, etc.), while a body in a hospital can't.
But, again, that situation is a direct consequence of the crash.
It ended like this because of that accident.

The driver/rider is the main subject of a crash. WIthout drivers/riders, I'd say there would be no racing.
If we exclude those photos, we're excluding the "main actors" of the crashes.

I think the main goal of the CPDB is not only to provide information about the crashes.
But to show them.
And bodies of dead drivers/racers recovering in hospitals/etc., even if they're very gruesome (many of they are), show what happened because of that crash. I see as a part of it.


If we don't include Reinholt Roth's image in the CPDB (I probably won't create the entry, but someone in the future could), then we should edit many pictures from the CPDB:

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/cras ... ditid1=278
(Stirling Moss' career-ending crash)

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/cras ... itid1=1067
(Lauda's infamous crash at the Nürburgring)

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/cras ... ditid1=558
(Alberto Ascari's fatal accident, which entry shows him at his funeral)

http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=564
(Jean Behra' fatal accident, which entry shows him in the casket)

And many more.

Why hasn't this problem been addressed before? Because the images of Moss, Lauda, Behra and Ascari are not gruesome as Roth's?

If Roth's photo can't be added to the CPDB, then we should review all the other entries.
Let's not have double standards, please.

If we are to be taken seriously.
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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

Motorsportrace wrote:
2 months ago
Why hasn't this problem been addressed before? Because the images of Moss, Lauda, Behra and Ascari are not gruesome as Roth's?

If Roth's photo can't be added to the CPDB, then we should review all the other entries.
Let's not have double standards, please.

If we are to be taken seriously.
I think something is wrong with me, because I have never questioned this kind of morality before :tongue:

It is just a feeling that I have even though it absolutely is double standards. I think we should be able to say "No, this particular photo is not going in the CPdB" and just leave it on the forum. In Roth's case he is still being cared for by his family. In the case of the marshal at Canada, well, his children only need to Google his name and it'll be one of the first things that come up.
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Post by hollie3sa » 2 months ago

Can we move the discussion into the CPdB section? It does not belong here.

Also, this was partially discussed when that one picture of Wayne Kelly's fatal Formula Ford accident at Mosport appeared some time ago, I think?

I'm on PT's side here. We certainly must not include the mentioned pictures (e. g. Roth in the hospital, the marshal being run over and others) in the CPdB.
We need to accept that we can not and, most importantly, should not obey one unalternable policy.

--------------------
Motorsportrace wrote:
2 months ago

If we are to be taken seriously.

Store the pictures somewhere. Yes. But hide them from the public. Probably even add a small caption saying that more exist but are hidden out of respect/due to what is depictured. So in the unlikely case of members of the family or journalists reaching out to us, these photos can be made available. But by no means, it's necessary to show them.

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Post by DaleJuniorFan » 2 months ago

Motorsportrace wrote:
2 months ago
I'd really like to know what the other members think about it.
@DaleJuniorFan
I'll put my thoughts in bullet points, since most of my beliefs have been spoken for by others:

* Photos of the deceased in a hospital/funeral casket - Funeral photos don't really add anything, so no. If the body is at the crash scene, then its ok, with spoiler tags of course. That goes double, or triple, or infinity, for autopsy photos (Which should go without saying, but just in case someone ever has the stones to try - Google it, if you're that depraved).
* Photos of a living driver in a hospital - I would've said yes, but going through everyone else's thoughts, I now believe it should depend on how distressing the photo in question is. For example, something like this photo of Duke Nalon after his crash in the '49 Indy 500 or the Stirling Moss photos brought up by @Motorsportrace I wouldn't take issue with because they portray the driver in mild or minimal suffering. The Reinhold Roth photo I would NOT include, not just due to the distressing nature, but mostly due to the near-comatose state that he now lives with. Had he made some sort of a full recovery I might consider it, even if it has to be spoilered for those of the faint of heart. Personal judgment aside, maybe we should consider running it by PT or the like if we're absolutely not sure of its inclusion in the CPdB.
* Beyond that: As Motorsportrace mentioned, I do question why there are entries of marshal/spectator incidents that do not directly involve a car in the race. Believe me, I know the irony of making this statement when I'm guilty of entering a few of these offenders (the '13 Canadian GP tractor fatal and '41 Indy garage fire to name a few). I never gave it a thought since these two were up before I got there and figured it was okay. If PT tells me to delete the entries I created that fall under that category, I wouldn't be offended. I can always take the photos repost them in the forum before deleting the entry so they don't get lost.

Also
hollie3sa wrote:
2 months ago
Can we move the discussion into the CPdB section? It does not belong.
+1

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Post by Motorsportrace » 2 months ago

Alright.
It seems I'm in the minority here.

PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
I think we should be able to say "No, this particular photo is not going in the CPdB" and just leave it on the forum.
I can understand that, but then: who should be the judge?
I'd say it's you, because... well, the forum is yours.
PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
In the case of the marshal at Canada, well, his children only need to Google his name and it'll be one of the first things that come up.
Alright, but then also any family members of John Masariu could be upset because there's a photo of him on the ground in the CPDB.
Also, you can't find the CPDB easily through Google. At least, Mark Robinson (the unfortunate marshal who was killed after the 2013 Canadian Grand Prix)'s entry doesn't show up when I search for it in Google.
But that's a different matter.

hollie3sa wrote:
2 months ago
We need to accept that we can not and, most importantly, should not obey one unalternable policy.
But then, one could say yes, while another one could say no. Who's going to decide?
hollie3sa wrote:
2 months ago
Store the pictures somewhere. Yes. But hide them from the public. Probably even add a small caption saying that more exist but are hidden out of respect/due to what is depictured. So in the unlikely case of members of the family or journalists reaching out to us, these photos can be made available.
This could work. I also thought about it, but for the forum (and it was a lot of time ago).



However, I still think there are some pictures which are "eligible" for the CPDB that are much worse than the ones we've mentioned here:
http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=327
(Tom Pryce and Frederick Jansen Van Vuuren, obviously)

http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=567
(Felice Bonetto: some of them could be even seen as "autopsy" photos, I think, except for the fact that they were published in a newspaper)

http://the-fastlane.co.uk/cpdb/crashpho ... ditid1=307
(Piers Courage)

They should stay there, right?


I can't really agree with your points of view.

Drivers in hospital should or shouldn't be in the CPDB, then? Only if the driver survived and/or didn't receive permanent injuries?

What if a photo (in the hospital) of a driver who survived is more gruesome than a photo of a driver who did not? I suppose the latter would be perceived as more gruesome because of the outcome, so it wouldn't find its way into the CPDB (while the first would be there).

Also: should images of drivers in caskets and/or at the funeral never be in the CDPB?
I wonder why this problem was never addressed before. Else Behra's and Ascari's entries would've never had those images in there.


Don't get me wrong: I have nothing against you.
But there is ambiguity, and, as I said, I really hate double standards.

But then, again: who am I to make decisions?
Take these just as my thoughts.
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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

Motorsportrace wrote:
2 months ago
PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
I think we should be able to say "No, this particular photo is not going in the CPdB" and just leave it on the forum.
I can understand that, but then: who should be the judge?
I'd say it's you, because... well, the forum is yours.
Well, we all have equal say here. The 'responsibility' to make the final decision only rests on me because my name is associated with this domain/website. Meaning that if we get any complaints from anyone, the blame will be mine as I am the site owner.

The point I wanted to make though is that we have to draw the line somewhere. It doesn't matter whether there is a written rule about it or not. If we, the contributors, look at certain photos as we upload them and start to think, "Well, maybe we shouldn't include that", then we shouldn't. Even if there are more graphic photos in the database. Even if this person in the photo lived and recovered, while others died. I feel that about this Roth photo and the Canadian marshal entry. I don't have any issues with them being posted on the forum, whether that be in Crash Photos or in a hidden section, since access to them are limited, but on the CPdB they are fully in the public domain.

Certainly, as @DaleJuniorFan says, autopsy photos are a definite, definite NO. Never, never, never.

Hospital photos, showing the driver recovering (E.g. like Stirling Moss), which were published widely in the press, no problem.

Photos of the driver in hospital on a breathing machine with tubes and things coming out of his body? Definitely not.

Open casket photos? Well, this is a hard one. In some of these cases, the press were invited to the funeral and asked to photograph the event. So, I guess it's okay, but let's use our discretion.

The Bonetto photos are borderline. I really, really don't like them but I don't have a strong feeling to delete them. One part of me says that this was so long ago, that maybe they are just about okay. Another part of me says that these photos are so clear and in such good quality, that they are beyond distasteful and should not be in the CPDB at all. If they were poor, newspaper quality images, like with the John Masariu, maybe they would be less of a problem. Ambiguity is always going to be there, we just have to work our way through it as a team.

Regarding the 1941 Indy fire photos or the 1960 Indy scaffold collapse, I don't see an issue.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 2 months ago

@PTRACER :agreepost:

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