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"Road race" vs. "Public Roads"

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"Road race" vs. "Public Roads"

Post by PTRACER » 1 year ago

Why do we have two categories here and what is the difference?

Can we make these into one?
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Post by hollie3sa » 1 year ago

For me "Public Roads" always referred to an event where the race track was not closed off to the public. E.g. early Le Mans practice sessisons (iirc) or (unofficial) test runs on rally stages. So to say a coexistence of racing and public traffic.



But I've always had trouble finding the difference between Permanent circuit, road race and street circuit.

Permanent circuit: A track that is used exclusively for racing purposes. (?)

Road racing (according to Wikipedia): Road racing is a form of motorsport racing held on a paved road surfaces. The races can be held either on a closed circuit or on a street circuit utilizing temporarily closed public roads.

Street circuit (according to Wikipedia): A street circuit is a motorsport racing circuit composed of temporarily closed-off public roads of a city, town or village, used in motor races.



These definitions partially overlap

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Post by PTRACER » 1 year ago

Street circuit would be something like Monaco, or Long Beach. But then how do we differ that from Public Roads, or Road Race?

Is Isle Of Man TT circuit a street circuit, or a road race? Perhaps because it is not confined to one city, I would say it is not a street circuit, but it fits into one of the other categories.

On the other hand, what about the Paris to Madrid of 1903, or the old Turismo Carretera which ran for 1000s of km and through several countries? It is all very confusing.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 1 year ago

PTRACER wrote:
1 year ago
Is Isle Of Man TT circuit a street circuit, or a road race?
It's both. But it takes place while the roads are closed off to the public. So, while the race takes place, the roads are per def. no longer public. The term Public Roads is something we inherited from mmorg, where we had to come up with something in order to make certain cases eligible. I've posted a longer criticism of the mmorg system of definition, it is still here. I disagree with it completely, but couldn't come up with a better solution (too much material would have to be disregarded), but my critique stands. The Carrera Panamericana was not held on public roads. They shut them down temporarily, in intervals, so the road race on the street circuit that it was, could legally (never mind responsibly) take place. Other than that, I agree with hollie3sa.
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Post by Jesper Hvid » 1 year ago

PTRACER wrote:
1 year ago
Can we make these into one?
No.
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Post by hollie3sa » 1 year ago

Our approach is wrong.

We're comparing a track type (public roads/street circuit) to a type of competition (road race). Simply eliminate the term "road race" => Every road race held on roads/streets that are sometimes open to the public become a street race. Every other track that is not an oval but is closed to public access becomes a permanent track.

Problem solved, right?

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Post by Michkov » 1 year ago

From the RCDB side of things, I've pretty much stuck to two classes permanent and temporary. Anything that is purpose build and closed to the public when no race is going on is a permanent track, so that's your Kyalamis or Road Americas. Then you have public streets temporarily closed for racing purposes, your Targas and Phoenixes. There are exceptions and edge cases, like an oval is an oval while it should be a permanent track in this scheme, or medieval Spa which was a hybrid of the two.

I'd keep the number of classes small, else you end up with small groups that dont bring much benefit. As to the original question, as I read it road races are races on closed public roads, while public roads is really only applicable to Targa practice days when the roads where still open or rally transfer legs.

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Post by PTRACER » 1 year ago

Yes! I think @hollie3sa has hit the nail on the head. "Road Race" is not a circuit type, it's an event type. So, let's retire it.

As per @Michkov's comment - We could simplify it with "Permanent circuit" and "Temporary circuit", but we run into trouble with the word circuit. That word suggests the course is a loop and the start+finish lines are in the same place.

AVUS, Chimay, Gnoo Blas, Longford etc are listed as Road Races on some entries, but they should really be Street Circuits since they are fairly short in length.

Mille Miglia is technically a street circuit, but it's also 1000km long and runs through the mountains and forests of Italy. To me, that puts it in a different classification to Monte Carlo, Long Beach, Baku etc. I also feel that Isle Of Man TT course and the old Brno are not just regular street circuits. So what do we call them?

Paris-Madrid, or Buenos Aries-Cordoba should perhaps get a new category ("City-to-city").

Otherwise I am a little lost.
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Post by Michkov » 1 year ago

Mille Miglia has more in common with the city to city races of the early 20th century than anything else. I'd classify it as city to city. If you look at the city to city races held there are several A to B to A events to be found, so it's not unprecedented.

I'd have the following bins Permanent, Temporary, City-to-City, Oval, Rally. That should cover most types of circuit.

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Post by PTRACER » 1 year ago

Mille Miglia has the city-to-city feel, but that's not the intention of the race. For me it's an extremely long version of a public road course, like the old Brno or old Sachsenring.

-----------------------

Here is our current list and how I feel about each one just so we are clear:

Airfield Circuit - Simple. It's a circuit run on the runways and perimeter roads of an airfield. This perhaps covers old Silverstone, up to a point. Definitely the Cleveland Indycar track.

City-to-City - A race which starts in one city and ends in another.

Dirt/Sand/Grass Track - Any circuit which is designed to have a non-tarmac, loose surface. Daytona Beach is a great example. Motorcross, rallycross etc. also applies. Races from 100 years ago on unpaved roads do not count. I think we should slot mixed surface tracks here too.

Drag Strip - Self-explanatory
Hillclimb - Self-explanatory
Ice Track - Self-explanatory
Oval (Board Track) - Self-explanatory
Oval (Dirt) - Self-explanatory
Oval (Paved) - Self-explanatory

Permanent Circuit - Any circuit that is a permanent facility, purpose-built for racing.

Point-to-Point - This mostly covers rally stages, plus anything which starts in one location and finishes in another, but isn't either a city-to-city endurance race, or a hillclimb.

Public Roads - I don't mean races run alongside real traffic. I just mean the race is run on roads also used by the public. This is different from a street circuit, because it won't be a short track confined to the city. It may drive through several towns or small villages, the environment may change from city to forest or mountain roads. For me, this is anything from Dundrod, Isle Of Man TT up to Mille Miglia and Targa Florio.

Road Race - I think this is where I have confused everybody. This is a category I thought we use for races which were not as long as the Mille Miglia, but not as short as Monte Carlo. I want to remove this category ASAP.

Street Circuit - aka "city circuit". Any circuit confined to a city, which uses city streets. Usually short and doesn't leave the city centre. Monaco, Long Beach, Detroit, most (but not all) Formula E circuits.
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Post by Michkov » 1 year ago

Here are my 2 cents, where I diverge from Paul

City-to-City - Cycling with cars, going from A to B, maybe over more than one day
Dirt/Sand/Grass Track - I've split grass tracks off from the offroad tracks. I also make a distinction between RX and MX tracks, mostly because they are not distinguishable from the drawing alone. For the CPD I'd pull out MX tracks from this category.

Oval (Board Track) - Self-explanatory
Oval (Dirt) - Self-explanatory These three I'd combine with a subdivision if that is possible into the three classes.
Oval (Paved) - Self-explanatory

Public Roads
Road Race I'd combine these into one category, since Permanent venues exists temporary seems like the logical counterpart to it.
Street Circuit

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