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Ranking Senna's F1 cars

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Ranking Senna's F1 cars

Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

Thread Rules

1. We will discuss the ranking of ONE CAR at a time.
2. Please reply to the newest posts, NOT the older ones.
3. See Post #2 of this thread for the rank. I will continuously edit as the discussion evolves.
4. At the end, we'll discuss all the cars as a group, make sure we're happy and then settle the final order.

I otherwise have no idea how this thread will go or how long to focus on each car, so let's just begin!

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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

As with Autosport.com, I have decided to begin with the worst cars and I have decided the Tolemans Senna drove in 1984 should go right at the bottom of the pile.

Does anyone have any objections to that? Is there another car that was 'worse' than these two in Senna's career?
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Post by DoubleFart » 2 months ago

Can't argue with that, they were certainly the least competitive.
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Post by Michkov » 2 months ago

No argument from me, I'm more interested what the next one will be though

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Post by caneparo » 2 months ago

The 183 was a terrible car, with the handicap of being years old. At least senna made 3 podiums on the 184
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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

Alright, I think we're happy with the Tolemans at the bottom then!

So, what goes above the Tolemans as the next worst car? Personally, I nominate the 1992 McLaren:
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The car was unreliable, breaking down on a number of occasions and overall, it had no real hope of challenging the Williams.

The only genuine victory Senna picked up was at the Hungaroring. He only won at Monaco by blocking Mansell in the final laps and at Monza because the Williams both retired.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 2 months ago

Probably agree with that.

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Post by caneparo » 2 months ago

Mp4/8 had a customer engine which was nowhere from the renault but senna was so good to make memorable wins with it
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Post by PTRACER » 2 months ago

caneparo wrote:
2 months ago
Mp4/8 had a customer engine which was nowhere from the renault but senna was so good to make memorable wins with it
Where would you rank the MP4/7 (1992)? Surely it is the worst McLaren he drove.
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Post by XcraigX » 2 months ago

I like this thread!
So far I don't agree. The Lotus 97T should go in 3rd to bottom spot. We get lost in rose-colored glasses when thinking about Senna's early years. The reliability and performance of the Lotus at that time was pretty bad. 7 retirements in 16 races made this car his 3rd biggest letdown. We get this 1985 season clouded with an upcoming Senna showing brilliance in a mid-to-rear-pack car and tend to look back on 97T as a decent platform when we should not.

The disappointment with the MP4/7 is mostly from lagging in the technology race with Williams. It was McLaren (the reigning WCC) unable to develop a decent active suspension system that put them out of contention. The Honda engine was fast and may have even been faster in 1992 than the William Renault, but the overall performance of the William active suspension chassis was far superior to anything in the field. I would also like to think (but I have no data here) that the unreliability of the MP4/7 was due to the suspension experiments and McLaren pushing to compensate with the Williams superiority more than it was an abject failure of the Honda engine or the McLaren chassis by itself in a straight fight.

The way I see it: Lotus 99T > McLaren MP4/7A & B > Lotus 98T > Lotus 97T > Tolemanses

Fix it, please.

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Post by caneparo » 2 months ago

PTRACER wrote:
2 months ago
caneparo wrote:
2 months ago
Mp4/8 had a customer engine which was nowhere from the renault but senna was so good to make memorable wins with it
Where would you rank the MP4/7 (1992)? Surely it is the worst McLaren he drove.
Right after the mp4/8 :)
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Post by John » 2 months ago

I don't just rank cars by the points they scored or didn't score, to me I have a certain affection to some cars, and thus I'll rank them higher than others. Thus I'd rate the TG-184 higher than, say, the 1987 Lotus or 1992 McLaren solely because that's the car he made a real name for himself with. I'll happily stick the TG-183 at the bottom of the pile, though. I'd perhaps even have the TG-184 in the top-5 solely because of this.
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Post by Michkov » 2 months ago

XcraigX wrote:
2 months ago
I like this thread!
So far I don't agree. The Lotus 97T should go in 3rd to bottom spot. We get lost in rose-colored glasses when thinking about Senna's early years. The reliability and performance of the Lotus at that time was pretty bad. 7 retirements in 16 races made this car his 3rd biggest letdown. We get this 1985 season clouded with an upcoming Senna showing brilliance in a mid-to-rear-pack car and tend to look back on 97T as a decent platform when we should not.

The disappointment with the MP4/7 is mostly from lagging in the technology race with Williams. It was McLaren (the reigning WCC) unable to develop a decent active suspension system that put them out of contention. The Honda engine was fast and may have even been faster in 1992 than the William Renault, but the overall performance of the William active suspension chassis was far superior to anything in the field. I would also like to think (but I have no data here) that the unreliability of the MP4/7 was due to the suspension experiments and McLaren pushing to compensate with the Williams superiority more than it was an abject failure of the Honda engine or the McLaren chassis by itself in a straight fight.

The way I see it: Lotus 99T > McLaren MP4/7A & B > Lotus 98T > Lotus 97T > Tolemanses

Fix it, please.
I have to disagree here, the 97T should be above the 98T. Both cars were capable of winning but the 98T was a lot less reliable then the 97T, hence the 97T>98T. I'm still unsure if the 99T should go in front of the 98T or not, because the car was a reliable midfield runner, bit disappointing, but it could finish a race. And then the MP4/7 is pretty much around the 99T, I'd put it above it by the fact that the Lotus was 3rd in the WCC and the McLaren 2nd.
Also it's not that the MP4/7 is a bad car, it came in 2nd in the WCC after all. It's just that the Mclarens tail off as we enter the 90s with the MP4/7 being the worst of the bunch.
John wrote:
2 months ago
I don't just rank cars by the points they scored or didn't score, to me I have a certain affection to some cars, and thus I'll rank them higher than others. Thus I'd rate the TG-184 higher than, say, the 1987 Lotus or 1992 McLaren solely because that's the car he made a real name for himself with. I'll happily stick the TG-183 at the bottom of the pile, though. I'd perhaps even have the TG-184 in the top-5 solely because of this.
We are ranking cars not drivers, the driver is a constant in all off this.

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Post by XcraigX » 2 months ago

Michkov wrote:
2 months ago

I have to disagree here, the 97T should be above the 98T. Both cars were capable of winning but the 98T was a lot less reliable then the 97T,
The 97T had more retirements for Senna (at 7). The 98T has fewer retirements for Senna and vastly improved results/wins (2 wins and 7 podium places). It only had more retirements for his team mate in that year. So was that down to the car or Johnny Dumfries? I tend to think it was Dumfries (the 7th Marquess of Bute), who was a midfield racer on a good day. I'm sticking with my original assessment: the 97T goes in 10th place and the 98T goes in 9th. However, I'm on the fence on if the MP4/7 slots into 8th with the 99T in 7th, or vice-versa.
Last edited by XcraigX 2 months ago, edited 2 times in total.

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