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Hill - the deserved 1994 champion

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Re: Hill - the deserved 1994 champion

Post by kals » 4 months ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
kals wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

What happened at Japan 1994?
The unthinkable.... Hill beat Schumacher, despite Schu being on pole. :wink: (closing the gap to one point at the top)




As an aside the race was red flagged when Brundle had his shunt, was later restarted and the race decided on aggregate times. (Schu was 6.8 secs ahead at the red flag, but lost by over 10 secs.) The last race to be decided that way.
You spoiled my fun. I wanted @Antonov to post that.

That was a pretty incredible win by Hill. Easily one of if not the best of his career.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 months ago

kals wrote:
4 months ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
kals wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

What happened at Japan 1994?
The unthinkable.... Hill beat Schumacher, despite Schu being on pole. :wink: (closing the gap to one point at the top)
You spoiled my fun. I wanted @Antonov to post that.

That was a pretty incredible win by Hill. Easily one of if not the best of his career.
I had given up on waiting for @Antonov :wink:
(But in case he had forgotten what happened I felt obligated to remind him. :tongue: )

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Post by PTRACER » 4 months ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
kals wrote:
4 months ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
kals wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

What happened at Japan 1994?
The unthinkable.... Hill beat Schumacher, despite Schu being on pole. :wink: (closing the gap to one point at the top)
You spoiled my fun. I wanted @Antonov to post that.

That was a pretty incredible win by Hill. Easily one of if not the best of his career.
I had given up on waiting for @Antonov :wink:
(But in case he had forgotten what happened I felt obligated to remind him. :tongue: )
Very tough conditions too, even Schumacher's traction control had a hard time that day.
King of the Race Track, Destroyer of Tyres, Breaker of Lap Records

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Post by Antonov » 4 months ago

ha. True, Hill kept it on the road and did a rather ok job that day.

but the red flag, and superior Williams strategy, is the only reason why Hill won that day.

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Post by kals » 4 months ago

Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
ha. True, Hill kept it on the road and did a rather ok job that day.

but the red flag, and superior Williams strategy, is the only reason why Hill won that day.
What superior strategy?

You mean losing time in the pits with a stuck rear wheel and choosing not to change it, thus completing the race on unbalanced tyres was intentional?

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Post by kals » 4 months ago

kals wrote:
4 months ago
kals wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.
Which disqualifications were unrightful?
@Antonov??
@Antonov??

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Post by Antonov » 4 months ago

disqualification for outdragging Hill on the start of the warmup lap is a draconian measure. it would be different had he done so several times during the lap. but even then a stop/go would have been a just-er penalty. but no... disqualification, and for half a dozen races as well, so as to artificially create a championship battle which never was in reality.

and don't get me started about Spa 1994. a dominant Schu victory robbed due to a beauty pirouette which slightly moved the plank - wouldnt surprise me if the kerb over which he spun was designed specifically by the FIA to tapper with Schu's victory.

all of these actions so as to create an illusion of a championship battle.

can't say I blame F1 for it though - they could use it after the tragedy early season. but still, Hill was not a challenger to Schumacher on merit in 1994.

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Post by kals » 4 months ago

Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
disqualification for outdragging Hill on the start of the warmup lap is a draconian measure. it would be different had he done so several times during the lap. but even then a stop/go would have been a just-er penalty. but no... disqualification, and for half a dozen races as well, so as to artificially create a championship battle which never was in reality.
:roll:

Let's deal in fact, shall we.

Schumacher overtook pole sitter Hill multiple times on the formation lap, which was in contravention of the rule that states the pole sitter would lead and control the field throughout the lap. For that indiscretion Schumacher was given a stop-go penalty. Schumacher was instructed by his team to ignore the penalty. Schumacher was then given a black-flag for not serving the penalty within the required time. Benetton instructed Schumacher to also ignore the black flag and instead serve the original penalty. Schumacher finished 2nd on the road but then disqualified after the race. Both Benetton's and Schumacher's actions throughout the race were deemed so serious that Schumacher was then punished further and banned for two races. He only raced in Germany under appeal.

So no, Schumacher was not disqualified for outdraggin Hill on the start of the warm up lap.
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
and don't get me started about Spa 1994. a dominant Schu victory robbed due to a beauty pirouette which slightly moved the plank - wouldnt surprise me if the kerb over which he spun was designed specifically by the FIA to tapper with Schu's victory.
The damage to the plank that caused Schumacher's disqualification was not consistent with his spin.
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
all of these actions so as to create an illusion of a championship battle.

can't say I blame F1 for it though - they could use it after the tragedy early season. but still, Hill was not a challenger to Schumacher on merit in 1994.
- 'option-13'
- illegally removing filters from refueling equipment
- disregarding race start procedures
- disobeying race stewards
- intentionally taking out title rival to secure championship

Yep, that's quite a merit.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 months ago

kals wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
disqualification for outdragging Hill on the start of the warmup lap is a draconian measure. it would be different had he done so several times during the lap. but even then a stop/go would have been a just-er penalty. but no... disqualification, and for half a dozen races as well, so as to artificially create a championship battle which never was in reality.
:roll:

Let's deal in fact, shall we. (Everso note: :thumbsup: )

Schumacher overtook pole sitter Hill multiple times on the formation lap, which was in contravention of the rule that states the pole sitter would lead and control the field throughout the lap. For that indiscretion Schumacher was given a stop-go penalty. Schumacher was instructed by his team to ignore the penalty. Schumacher was then given a black-flag for not serving the penalty within the required time. Benetton instructed Schumacher to also ignore the black flag and instead serve the original penalty. Schumacher finished 2nd on the road but then disqualified after the race. Both Benetton's and Schumacher's actions throughout the race were deemed so serious that Schumacher was then punished further and banned for two races. He only raced in Germany under appeal.

So no, Schumacher was not disqualified for outdraggin Hill on the start of the warm up lap.
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
and don't get me started about Spa 1994. a dominant Schu victory robbed due to a beauty pirouette which slightly moved the plank - wouldnt surprise me if the kerb over which he spun was designed specifically by the FIA to tapper with Schu's victory.
The damage to the plank that caused Schumacher's disqualification was not consistent with his spin.
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
all of these actions so as to create an illusion of a championship battle.

can't say I blame F1 for it though - they could use it after the tragedy early season. but still, Hill was not a challenger to Schumacher on merit in 1994.
- 'option-13'
- illegally removing filters from refueling equipment
- disregarding race start procedures
- disobeying race stewards
- intentionally taking out title rival to secure championship

Yep, that's quite a merit.
:agreepost:

A saying comes to mind re @Antonov's post.... lets not spoil a good story for the sake of the truth. :wink:

As Patrick Head said in the non Williams protest thing at Adelaide, If Michael is (morally) happy with the way he won his title so be it. We dont want to win (a title) in the courtroom. :wink:

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Post by Antonov » 4 months ago

I hear you there, but authorities of F1, like Tom Rubython, agree the penalties handed to Schumacher were too harsh.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 months ago

Lol.... Tom Rubython has never exactly been shy about writing inaccurate stuff for the sake of a story. :wink:
I guess that can be said with all journos and scribes these days though.

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Post by Michael Ferner » 4 months ago

Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
disqualification for outdragging Hill on the start of the warmup lap is a draconian measure. it would be different had he done so several times during the lap. but even then a stop/go would have been a just-er penalty. but no... disqualification, and for half a dozen races as well, so as to artificially create a championship battle which never was in reality.
As has been said, Schu was not disqualified for outdragging Hill at the start, but for disobeying the black flag, which is a very serious offence. Also, he did overtake Hill "several times", actually twice iirc, and he wasn't disqualified for half a dozen races, check your math.

That being said, there appears to have been an element of spicing up the championship in all those penalties, to be fair. Overtaking on the parade lap had never been an issue before, even in 1994 and even with Schumacher himself being the culprit - check the very first race of the season, for example. No mistaking, Schu was in the wrong doing it, but the authorities taking note and handing out a stop-go penalty was, well, let's just say unusual. However, the decision by the Benetton management to ignore the black flag was certainly not very clever, to say the very least - it opened the door to all sorts of penalties, and really set off the unpleasant feel that the championship developed in the latter half of the season. You can't blame that on anyone else but Benetton, and Schumacher who should have known what he was getting into - every driver is obliged to know the rules, so there's no excuse, he could have just come in and serve his penalty, and everything would've been fine. He chose not to.

At the time, the penalties seemed harsh, indeed. But in retrospect, with all the facts that have come to light in the meantime, I think Benetton and Schumi came off VERY lightly. This was a blatant try to win a World Championship at any cost, without ANY regard for rules or sportsmanship. These days, we're rather used to that, but in 1994 it was a first.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 months ago

Michael Ferner wrote:
4 months ago
Antonov wrote:
4 months ago
disqualification for outdragging Hill on the start of the warmup lap is a draconian measure. it would be different had he done so several times during the lap. but even then a stop/go would have been a just-er penalty. but no... disqualification, and for half a dozen races as well, so as to artificially create a championship battle which never was in reality.
As has been said, Schu was not disqualified for outdragging Hill at the start, but for disobeying the black flag, which is a very serious offence. Also, he did overtake Hill "several times", actually twice iirc, and he wasn't disqualified for half a dozen races, check your math.

That being said, there appears to have been an element of spicing up the championship in all those penalties, to be fair. Overtaking on the parade lap had never been an issue before, even in 1994 and even with Schumacher himself being the culprit - check the very first race of the season, for example. No mistaking, Schu was in the wrong doing it, but the authorities taking note and handing out a stop-go penalty was, well, let's just say unusual. However, the decision by the Benetton management to ignore the black flag was certainly not very clever, to say the very least - it opened the door to all sorts of penalties, and really set off the unpleasant feel that the championship developed in the latter half of the season. You can't blame that on anyone else but Benetton, and Schumacher who should have known what he was getting into - every driver is obliged to know the rules, so there's no excuse, he could have just come in and serve his penalty, and everything would've been fine. He chose not to.

At the time, the penalties seemed harsh, indeed. But in retrospect, with all the facts that have come to light in the meantime, I think Benetton and Schumi came off VERY lightly. This was a blatant try to win a World Championship at any cost, without ANY regard for rules or sportsmanship. These days, we're rather used to that, but in 1994 it was a first.
:agreepost:

Nothing to add.

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Post by Antonov » 4 months ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
Lol.... Tom Rubython has never exactly been shy about writing inaccurate stuff for the sake of a story. :wink:
I guess that can be said with all journos and scribes these days though.
well, as the info is printed in a book, I consider it to be correct.

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Post by Michael Ferner » 4 months ago

Oh, I have something to add: "This was a blatant try to win a World Championship at any cost, without ANY regard for rules, sportsmanship or the safety and well being of other people, whether directly involved or totally unconnected to their efforts."


:) Better.
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Post by Michael Ferner » 4 months ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
4 months ago
:agreepost:

Nothing to add.
Oh, I have something to add: "This was a blatant try to win a World Championship at any cost, without ANY regard for rules, sportsmanship or the safety and well being of other people, whether directly involved or totally unconnected to their efforts."


:) Better.
Winning isn't everything, but it's somewhat better than finishing second! -- Bruce McLaren

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