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Question about Senna's crash at Imola 1994

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Re: Question about Senna's crash at Imola 1994

Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

Last post from previous page:

...The true story is that the steering column had some minor welding work done on it prior to the race..
I read (Il caso Ayrton Senna, Nicola Santoro) that 2 tecnician under the supervision of Tony Pilcher (Fischer and Gavin? I'm not sure) on 10 of April, before the first Grand Prix, made 3 modified steering wheels. No minor welding works after that.

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

Perhaps he was again caught by surprise on that fateful day at Imola?
I don't think because...it was impossible to make mistake THERE!
He could have made mistake everywere at Imola, in braking, accelerations ... but certainly not there! :sorrow:

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Senna had requested the change in length to the steering column at Imola to give him a better seating position. The column was cut and welded to meet his request. This fact is very well documented. I know nothing of any changes to the wheel itself.

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 year ago
Senna had requested the change in length to the steering column at Imola to give him a better seating position. The column was cut and welded to meet his request. This fact is very well documented. I know nothing of any changes to the wheel itself.
Yes, sorry for my english. I thought so, but Pilcher (during the trial) said that column was modified only on 10 april, not at Imola.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

330tr wrote:
1 year ago
Perhaps he was again caught by surprise on that fateful day at Imola?
I don't think because...it was impossible to make mistake THERE!
He could have made mistake everywere at Imola, in braking, accelerations ... but certainly not there! :sorrow:
We saw from the sparks that the car bottomed through Tamburello.... this would change the downforce characteristics of the car (by not allowing the clean passage of airflow to generate downforce). We also know he made an opposite lock correction in the corner so to say the corner is flat out at all times is flawed. Perhaps the loss of downforce due to grounding caused the car to be unstable. Also the car was still fairly heavy with fuel having been running behind a slow SC.

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

Please (please), see this. Restart lap. The car was FLAT, perfect. I don't understand (actually yes..) WHY the next lap..oversteer, understeer, instability ecc ecc..
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUgovLW_Emc[/youtube]

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Post by erwin greven » 1 year ago

330tr wrote:
1 year ago
Please (please), see this. Restart lap. The car was FLAT, perfect. I don't understand (actually yes..) WHY the next lap..oversteer, understeer, instability ecc ecc..
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

330tr wrote:
1 year ago
Please (please), see this. Restart lap. The car was FLAT, perfect. I don't understand (actually yes..) WHY the next lap..oversteer, understeer, instability ecc ecc..
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUgovLW_Emc[/youtube]
Perhaps with tyres slightly warmer and Ayrton aware his pit stops would be slower than the Benetton (the Renault engine was known to use more fuel than the Cosworth and needed to take on at least a second of extra fuel each stop, plus the as we later learnt Bennetton cheat fuelling system which further compounded the problem with less fuel filling at a faster rate) was pushing extra hard to pull a gap to minimise the pit stop disadvantage he would suffer.

The same pit stop variations between the Williams and Benetton is what caused him to lose his lead in Brazil, where he as admitted overdrove the car to compensate.

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

I am sure you are aware of the refuelling cheat utilised by Benetton to increase fuel flow at pit stops... the missing filter which caused the Verstappen fire later that year in Germany.

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Post by kals » 1 year ago

Tyre pressures, suspension travel, Senna's line through Tamburello, the bumpiness of the track... all of these are small variables that can contribute to an outcome. Senna's 'mistake' is nothing more than being a few millimeters further to the inside of the curve where there was the biggest pronounced bump. It's unlike Ratzenburger's mistake from the previous day when he went into Tamburello and Villenueve with a damaged car.

At the early Outlon Park round of 1993 BTCC Steve Soper suffered a steering column breakage while braking into a corner:



Notice the sudden jerk to the right, the total lack of car momentum to the left? That was at a relatively low speed. Senna's incident happened at one of the fastest curves in F1 at close to 200mph. Senna was still able to steer the Williams to the left, that's a fact.

What you're saying about the steering column modifications is not new information. The point at which the column sheered showed no signs of fatigue, which you would expect from a part that was failing. Instead it showed damage consistent with a heavy impact. At the same time, the seemingly unnatural steering movements (up, down, left and right) that are indicated in the videos are nothing more than standard steering column flex. These flexes were noted and discounted in the case.

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

The point at which the column sheered showed no signs of fatigue, which you would expect from a part that was failing. Instead it showed damage consistent with a heavy impact. At the same time, the seemingly unnatural steering movements (up, down, left and right) that are indicated in the videos are nothing more than standard steering column flex. These flexes were noted and discounted in the case.
The experts (and NEWEY too!! Check it out) said the exact opposite. There where a lot of signs of fatigue. Alboreto said (I agree) that "standard steering column flex" was not more than 1 cm. I don't want to speak about Coulthard's video :evil:

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

Newey said nothing regarding fatigue although he admitted to design errors. In fact he suggests that the car initially losing traction at the rear shows it was nothing to do with the steering. This is taken from his interviews:
However Newey subsequently reviewed onboard footage from Michael Schumacher’s car which was following Senna on track at the time. The video persuaded Newey that the steering column hadn't been responsible for the crash after all.

The footage showed showed Senna’s car initially broke traction at the rear. That wouldn't have been the case with a steering failure. However, that did little to relieve Newey's sense of responsibility for what had happened.

“Regardless of whether that steering column caused the accident or not, there is no escaping the fact that it was a bad piece of design that should never have been allowed to get on the car," he explained.

“I was one of the senior officers in a team that designeed a car in which a great man was killed."

Newey felt that the lack of performance from the car in the first two races of the season had forced Senna to pushed to the very limit in his battle with Schumacher.

“What I feel the most guilt about [is] the fact that I screwed up the aerodynamics of the car,” he wrote. “I messed up the transition from active suspension back to passive and designed a car that was aerodynamically unstable.

"Ayrton attempted to do things the car was not capable of doing," he added.


“Whether he did or didn’t get a puncture, his taking the inside, faster-but-bumpier line in a car that was aerodynamically unstable would have made the car difficult to control, even for him.


“I will always feel a degree of responsibility for Ayrton’s death - but not culpability."

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote: ...was pushing extra hard to pull a gap to minimise the pit stop disadvantage he would suffer.
At Tamburello "curve", more than go flat..you can't! :wow:

Newey: "bad piece of design that should never have been allowed to get on the car". He said.
Forghieri: "The column broke".
The sentence of the trial (copy/past from https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/4 ... rian-newey) "... the accident was caused by a steering-column failure. This failure was caused by badly designed and badly executed modifications. The responsibility of this falls on Patrick Head, culpable of omitted control."

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 year ago

The car lost traction at the back.... nothing to do with the steering. You have made up the badly executed bit, he said it was a poor design, nothing else. He also highlighted the cars weakness and Senna asking the car to do things it was not capable of.... ie Ayrton was overdriving the car, driving beyond its (aerodynamic) limitations.
You are set in your opinion, I am with mine. We are getting nowhere here. Neither of us will change our opinion.

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Post by kals » 1 year ago

330tr wrote:
1 year ago
I don't want to speak about Coulthard's video :evil:
Huh? :huh:

@Everso Biggyballies just give up. We're stating the facts and getting conjecture in response. I mean, we could agree with the outcome of a case that is widely known to have been flawed throughout and was only after a guilty verdict (as was required by Italian law because it involved a death) against a singular party. Instead we're being presented with details that are also known to be circumstantial at best.

@330tr You are welcome to your own opinion and we all here enjoy engaging in lively debate. However you appear to be of the belief that you are the only person who can be correct because of a few flawed points. We don't expect or want to change your opinion, we do however expect respect during a discussion.

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Post by 330tr » 1 year ago

@kals During the trial, the Williams defense showed a video, where Coulthard play with the steering wheel. Should be this..


Ps. If I offended someone I apologize (maybe I express myself badly and abruptly), but when I hear someone to say that senna "made a mistake THERE" I go MAD (and sad..).. :rip:

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