Hill - the deserved 1994 champion

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Re: Hill - the deserved 1994 champion

Post by PTRACER » 1 week ago

Last post from previous page:

Andy wrote:
1 week ago
Thirdly, one point that usually gets slagged off but still stands, and shows up bigger than ever these days.
While Germans have a lot of compassion for the English and their history it is not like that on the other side of the channel towards Germans and their history. You have the odd ones out, undeniably but that's that. Odd ones out.

Eversince Germany had overtaken England economically past WW2, the English had a rather jealous look over the channel to the country they still held occupied in parts. This was paired, at least in the days prior to Schumachers '94 title, with some missing knowledge about the not too far away times of the Nazi regime here in Germany. I had been over in 1992 as an exchange pupil and we were received with a raised right arm and a 'Sieg Heil' by pupils of the school we went to. Back then they didn't know much more than there was a certain Mr. Hitler who reigned over Germany and was allied with Italy. And more importantly, that they won the second world war over him. This is all stuff, which had been used by the British far right along with other topics to spread their lies and win the Brexit-referendum, just a tad over 20 years past the Schmumichels '94 title.

The Schmumichels move on Hill remains a thorn in the English butt. In a year when Senna probably would have won the the title but died unfortunately, an Englishman took over in the English car the now dead ex-champion drove. And many would have loved seeing the English driver bringing home the title in the very English car, Senna lost his life in. In Sennas memory.
Now this isn't exclusively English but a theme that probably goes on in every sport and sports nation and has been taken to the extreme when Michael Dunlop won the 250cc race at the 2008 Northwest 200, 2 days past his father Roberts' death at the circuit in the same class Robert had entered.

Schmumichels blunt attempt on Hill brought out a lot of the old prejudices between England and Germany, whether conciously or unconciously. The evil (Italian-German) axis against the still occupying British. Dirty tricks against the self acclaimed fair play.
If it had been anyone else who had wrecked Hill's title chance the outcry would not have been as loud as it became. But as it turned out old themes were fed very well.

I'm sorry if any of my English as well as British mates are feeling hurt after reading above, especially the third paragraph. But there's more to it than the Schmumichels dirty trick and why it ain't received that well, even if it gets discarded.
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Sorry, but I think considering this an issue of national pride, or a Germany v. Britain issue, is way off the mark. Much of Schumacher's career is clouded by accusations of cheating and 1994 was the peak of this. The car allegedly ran TC illegally all year, he overtook Hill on the warm-up lap at Silverstone and blatantly ignored the black disqualification flags, at Belgium he was disqualified for having an illegal car and received a two race ban and finally, he finished his season off by purposely driving into his main rival at the championship decider after breaking his car on a concrete wall. What a way to taint your own championship season.
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Post by kals » 1 week ago

PTRACER wrote:
1 week ago
Sorry, but I think considering this an issue of national pride, or a Germany v. Britain issue, is way off the mark. Much of Schumacher's career is clouded by accusations of cheating and 1994 was the peak of this. The car allegedly ran TC illegally all year, he overtook Hill on the warm-up lap at Silverstone and blatantly ignored the black disqualification flags, at Belgium he was disqualified for having an illegal car and received a two race ban and finally, he finished his season off by purposely driving into his main rival at the championship decider after breaking his car on a concrete wall. What a way to taint your own championship season.
While this is all true, so is what @Andy talks of. Having lived through that period and attended various GPs through the 90s and other motorsport events, it is true that Schumacher's emergence (as a competitive German in F1) and his competition against Hill did create and perpetuate a war time-style narrative (and constant references to Nazis) at races, in the media, etc...This lasted for many years. For instance, one of Schumi's nicknames was "The Red Baron" in reference to a WW1 German fighter pilot.

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Post by MonteCristo » 1 week ago

Mosley didn't help.
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Post by kals » 1 week ago

MonteCristo wrote:
1 week ago
Mosley didn't help.
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Yeah but if I remember rightly, he was having that beaten out of him. Right?

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Post by erwin greven » 1 week ago

kals wrote:
1 week ago
Having lived through that period and attended various GPs through the 90s and other motorsport events, it is true that Schumacher's emergence (as a competitive German in F1) and his competition against Hill did create and perpetuate a war time-style narrative (and constant references to Nazis) at races, in the media, etc...
The references to Nazi's and Hitler are not limited to being pointed to Schumacher alone. And that is why i thought the Germans were a bit used to it. Even when it is really silly after 70-75 years.
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Post by Antonov » 1 week ago

In the new book on 1994, the author claims Senna and Williams mistakenly took Schumacher and Benetton for having traction control. The idea of Senna formed largely through a weird sound, but the author claims this had to do with a unique style in Schumachers's driving: left foot braking while not releasing the throttle completely.

Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

There was no protest lodged against Schumacher's chop, because honestly, for Williams the end of the season couldn't come soon enough. The driver they wanted to be champion was killed, and they didn't care too much for Hill.

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Post by kals » 1 week ago

Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.
Which disqualifications were unrightful?

What happened at Japan 1994?

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 week ago

Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
In the new book on 1994, the author claims Senna and Williams mistakenly took Schumacher and Benetton for having traction control. The idea of Senna formed largely through a weird sound, but the author claims this had to do with a unique style in Schumachers's driving: left foot braking while not releasing the throttle completely.

Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

There was no protest lodged against Schumacher's chop, because honestly, for Williams the end of the season couldn't come soon enough. The driver they wanted to be champion was killed, and they didn't care too much for Hill.
That book has been quoted in detail on the previous page.

Take note that much of the content of the story is from Benetton staff in the year discussed.... ie William Toet.

The lack of protest by Williams at the Schumi chop was also discussed and the reasons why mentioned in earlier posts in the thread. :wink:

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Post by kals » 1 week ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 week ago
Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
In the new book on 1994, the author claims Senna and Williams mistakenly took Schumacher and Benetton for having traction control. The idea of Senna formed largely through a weird sound, but the author claims this had to do with a unique style in Schumachers's driving: left foot braking while not releasing the throttle completely.

Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

There was no protest lodged against Schumacher's chop, because honestly, for Williams the end of the season couldn't come soon enough. The driver they wanted to be champion was killed, and they didn't care too much for Hill.
That book has been quoted in detail on the previous page.

Take note that much of the content of the story is from Benetton staff in the year discussed.... ie William Toet.

The lack of protest by Williams at the Schumi chop was also discussed and the reasons why mentioned in earlier posts in the thread. :wink:
My original response was very similar, instead I edited to focus on the questionable claim about Schumi's DSQs.

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Post by DoubleFart » 1 week ago

Braking and accelerating wasn't new though was it, as iirc Senna was one of those who utilised braking whilst keeping the revs up and ensuring the turbo was always on boost.
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Post by kals » 1 week ago

DoubleFart wrote:
1 week ago
Braking and accelerating wasn't new though was it, as iirc Senna was one of those who utilised braking whilst keeping the revs up and ensuring the turbo was always on boost.
There’s a great YouTube video from Monza testing that demonstrates Senna’s technique.

About this book. I was looking forward to reading it and subscribed to the updates. Yet when extracts were released as teasers along the writer’s perspective, I was underwhelmed. Information being presented as new fact was being overblown, perspective on incidents and information we already knew contradicted facts.

I’m interested to get thoughts once you’ve read it @DoubleFart

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 week ago

kals wrote:
1 week ago


About this book. I was looking forward to reading it and subscribed to the updates. Yet when extracts were released as teasers along the writer’s perspective, I was underwhelmed. Information being presented as new fact was being overblown, perspective on incidents and information we already knew contradicted facts.
I was in the same boat, got the updates, read the samples and soon realised it was as you say not the gluttony of new info implied in the early press releases. And what they have put forward is from people like Toet, who as an engineer I respect tremendously as I have written previously, but I feel, as a Benetton insider much of his input is perhaps just to diffuse any further controversy. I was rather hoping for beans to be spilt, maybe an admission or two of guilt rather that what appears to be a cover up.

Again whether that is just the teasers I have read and there is more to the actual book I dont know, but it has dropped off my must get it list, for now at least.

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Post by kals » 1 week ago

kals wrote:
1 week ago
Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.
Which disqualifications were unrightful?

What happened at Japan 1994?
@Antonov??

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Post by erwin greven » 1 week ago

kals wrote:
1 week ago
Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
Anyway, Schumacher not being champion in 1994 would have been a farce: he was miles ahead, and even after unrightful disqualifications and exclusions, Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.
Which disqualifications were unrightful?

What happened at Japan 1994?
@Antonov ??
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 week ago

kals wrote:
1 week ago
Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

What happened at Japan 1994?
The unthinkable.... Hill beat Schumacher, despite Schu being on pole. :wink: (closing the gap to one point at the top)




As an aside the race was red flagged when Brundle had his shunt, was later restarted and the race decided on aggregate times. (Schu was 6.8 secs ahead at the red flag, but lost by over 10 secs.) The last race to be decided that way.

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Post by kals » 1 week ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 week ago
kals wrote:
1 week ago
Antonov wrote:
1 week ago
Hill couldn't beat Schumacher.

What happened at Japan 1994?
The unthinkable.... Hill beat Schumacher, despite Schu being on pole. :wink: (closing the gap to one point at the top)




As an aside the race was red flagged when Brundle had his shunt, was later restarted and the race decided on aggregate times. (Schu was 6.8 secs ahead at the red flag, but lost by over 10 secs.) The last race to be decided that way.
You spoiled my fun. I wanted @Antonov to post that.

That was a pretty incredible win by Hill. Easily one of if not the best of his career.

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