It's possible we'll never be able to benchmark the new generation
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It's possible we'll never be able to benchmark the new generation
Lewis Hamilton holds the ability to doom a generation if he calls it a day at the end of 2021.
In the 1980s', Alain Prost took on Niki Lauda in the same car, then Senna took on Prost, again sharing the Mclaren seats. The torch had been passed from one champion to another.
Together, Prost and Senna both rivalled Schumacher and Hakkinen, the duo claiming the baton after Senna's death and demonstrating their claim to be the best Formula 1 driver. Schumacher prevailed, and fought Alonso in cars with a near equal performance level. Alonso took the title, and with it looked set to be the man to dominate for a decade.
Enter Lewis Hamilton, a man who rattled Alonso so much that Alonso left Mclaren after just a season, but a season in which the pair couldn't have been much closer.
Alonso however, is the only benchmark we have for Lewis.
See, he's had World Champion teammates (Button and Rosberg), and he's beaten them both 2-1 over their three season stints together. Their titles however were won in cars that had a supreme advantage over the field for a large, or all of the season. Sure, they're champions, but they've not come out on top of a 5 way battle like Vettel did in 2010 for instance. They're one time champs, and unlikely to be considered to be in the Top 10 of F1's greatest ever.
Now Lewis has the ability to doom a generation, as the new crop - LeClerc, Russell, Verstappen, Norris and co, have never been able to fight Lewis on an even footing. If Lewis drives alonside Valtteri Bottas in 2021, and then retires, they'll never have had the opportunity to benchmark themselves against Lewis.
Leclerc and Verstappen have both beaten Lewis fair and square in one off races. They haven't however had a car capable of sustaining a title challenger across a season, and their raw talent alone isn't enough to get close to the Merc. We know they're good, but we don't know if they're "Lewis" good.
Thoughts?
In the 1980s', Alain Prost took on Niki Lauda in the same car, then Senna took on Prost, again sharing the Mclaren seats. The torch had been passed from one champion to another.
Together, Prost and Senna both rivalled Schumacher and Hakkinen, the duo claiming the baton after Senna's death and demonstrating their claim to be the best Formula 1 driver. Schumacher prevailed, and fought Alonso in cars with a near equal performance level. Alonso took the title, and with it looked set to be the man to dominate for a decade.
Enter Lewis Hamilton, a man who rattled Alonso so much that Alonso left Mclaren after just a season, but a season in which the pair couldn't have been much closer.
Alonso however, is the only benchmark we have for Lewis.
See, he's had World Champion teammates (Button and Rosberg), and he's beaten them both 2-1 over their three season stints together. Their titles however were won in cars that had a supreme advantage over the field for a large, or all of the season. Sure, they're champions, but they've not come out on top of a 5 way battle like Vettel did in 2010 for instance. They're one time champs, and unlikely to be considered to be in the Top 10 of F1's greatest ever.
Now Lewis has the ability to doom a generation, as the new crop - LeClerc, Russell, Verstappen, Norris and co, have never been able to fight Lewis on an even footing. If Lewis drives alonside Valtteri Bottas in 2021, and then retires, they'll never have had the opportunity to benchmark themselves against Lewis.
Leclerc and Verstappen have both beaten Lewis fair and square in one off races. They haven't however had a car capable of sustaining a title challenger across a season, and their raw talent alone isn't enough to get close to the Merc. We know they're good, but we don't know if they're "Lewis" good.
Thoughts?
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Further to this, it's actually damaging to Lewis if he doesn't face one of these on equal or similar footing.
The only person of note that he beat is Alonso, and that was because he had more wins or seconds or whatever it was.
Alonso then went on to beat Lewis in 2010, 2011 and 2012, the last of which has been described as one of the worst title contending cars ever.
Bottas and Rosberg wouldn't crack the Top 20 drivers of all time. Heck, Bottas wouldn't crack the Top 50 Lewis hasn't ever beaten anybody of note. At least Schumacher beat Hill and Hakkinen, was toe to toe with Alonso and beat Senna in 93 and start of 94.
The only person of note that he beat is Alonso, and that was because he had more wins or seconds or whatever it was.
Alonso then went on to beat Lewis in 2010, 2011 and 2012, the last of which has been described as one of the worst title contending cars ever.
Bottas and Rosberg wouldn't crack the Top 20 drivers of all time. Heck, Bottas wouldn't crack the Top 50 Lewis hasn't ever beaten anybody of note. At least Schumacher beat Hill and Hakkinen, was toe to toe with Alonso and beat Senna in 93 and start of 94.
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The common sense is that Verstappen would have beaten Hamilton if they drove the same car (Mercedes). However Red Bull will never let Verstappen go (duh) so we can only speculate who's the faster driver. Hamilton had some great drives when McLaren was not a title challenging car, his two wins at Hungaroring in 2012 & 2013 are the example.
It's not Hamilton's fault Ferrari can't get out of it's own way when being run by Italians and Red Bull is only an engine customer in the engine-first era which puts them at a proverbial disadvantage.
It's not Hamilton's fault Ferrari can't get out of it's own way when being run by Italians and Red Bull is only an engine customer in the engine-first era which puts them at a proverbial disadvantage.
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I think it would be a 60/40 situation. Lewis being the winner of 60% and Verstappen on 40%. Hamilton seems to get very stressed though whenever he has any kind of competition, so just the idea of a strong team mate would probably reduce his chances of winning.Vassago wrote: ↑3 years ago The common sense is that Verstappen would have beaten Hamilton if they drove the same car (Mercedes). However Red Bull will never let Verstappen go (duh) so we can only speculate who's the faster driver. Hamilton had some great drives when McLaren was not a title challenging car, his two wins at Hungaroring in 2012 & 2013 are the example.
@DoubleFart How many more seasons do you think Hamilton will do?
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Doom a generation?
They'll just think 'thank fuck he's not around any more'
Just another generation of winners begins, no problems .
Likely max every year
They'll just think 'thank fuck he's not around any more'
Just another generation of winners begins, no problems .
Likely max every year
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Yes, but if Max went on to win 9 championships, the Hamilton fanboys will forever say "Well, he never beat Lewis so it doesn't mean anything, Lewis beat Alonso who beat Schumacher, who beat Senna, who beat Prost, who beat Lauda...."
@PTRACER - I reckon Lewis will retire after 2023 - he'll do the first couple of seasons in the new regs and then decide he's 40 and wants to explore other interests.
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I'm with @DoubleFart on this one. He will no doubt be looking to become more involved in music.... no doubt becoming the first rapper with a Knighthood.DoubleFart wrote: ↑3 years agoYes, but if Max went on to win 9 championships, the Hamilton fanboys will forever say "Well, he never beat Lewis so it doesn't mean anything, Lewis beat Alonso who beat Schumacher, who beat Senna, who beat Prost, who beat Lauda...."
@PTRACER - I reckon Lewis will retire after 2023 - he'll do the first couple of seasons in the new regs and then decide he's 40 and wants to explore other interests.
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What about Sir Mix-a-Lot?
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Verstappen has made some driving errors when he's overdriving the thing to make up for the performance gap. On the other hand Hamilton has shown weakness when Rosberg suddenly upped his game in 2016. Despite having the poles record, Hamilton can actually be beaten across one lap, it's is race craft that forges him ahead. He used to make more mistakes when he was younger. And we have no idea how would Verstappen handle the tires, Mercedes struggles in cooler temps, Hamilton gets a lot of flack for his repeated tyre comments but his rubber management is one of the best.PTRACER wrote: ↑3 years agoI think it would be a 60/40 situation. Lewis being the winner of 60% and Verstappen on 40%. Hamilton seems to get very stressed though whenever he has any kind of competition, so just the idea of a strong team mate would probably reduce his chances of winning.Vassago wrote: ↑3 years ago The common sense is that Verstappen would have beaten Hamilton if they drove the same car (Mercedes). However Red Bull will never let Verstappen go (duh) so we can only speculate who's the faster driver. Hamilton had some great drives when McLaren was not a title challenging car, his two wins at Hungaroring in 2012 & 2013 are the example.
@DoubleFart How many more seasons do you think Hamilton will do?
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You wish it was from your country. But enzo was born here. PrrrrrrVassago wrote: ↑3 years ago The common sense is that Verstappen would have beaten Hamilton if they drove the same car (Mercedes). However Red Bull will never let Verstappen go (duh) so we can only speculate who's the faster driver. Hamilton had some great drives when McLaren was not a title challenging car, his two wins at Hungaroring in 2012 & 2013 are the example.
It's not Hamilton's fault Ferrari can't get out of it's own way when being run by Italians and Red Bull is only an engine customer in the engine-first era which puts them at a proverbial disadvantage.
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Wait what, so Sir-Mix-A-Lot wasn't actually knighted?!
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Sir gets-it-bought-in-his-favor more like.
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Oh I noticed you were three days ahead of me with that joke. I gotta start paying attention.
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It's a fact though. In the last 30 years Ferrari only had success when it was run by non-Italians (because di Montezemolo approved the right people without looking at their passports). I have high regard for Italian items - Sergio Leone's westerns, Dorothea Wierer and Fiat Punto was my first car (since Italy makes much better cars than France for instance) BUT Ferrari's current management isn't one of themcaneparo wrote: ↑3 years agoYou wish it was from your country. But enzo was born here. PrrrrrrVassago wrote: ↑3 years ago The common sense is that Verstappen would have beaten Hamilton if they drove the same car (Mercedes). However Red Bull will never let Verstappen go (duh) so we can only speculate who's the faster driver. Hamilton had some great drives when McLaren was not a title challenging car, his two wins at Hungaroring in 2012 & 2013 are the example.
It's not Hamilton's fault Ferrari can't get out of it's own way when being run by Italians and Red Bull is only an engine customer in the engine-first era which puts them at a proverbial disadvantage.
07.04.1968 - Flower of Scotland when will we see your like again?
01.05.1994 - We'll never forget...
01.05.1994 - We'll never forget...