Honda leaves F1 after 2021

[John]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Or will it be Mugen branded after all under some sort of Red Bull/Mugen umbrella? Does Red Bull even have the knowhow to develop the engine?

[MonteCristo]

Does Red Bull even have the knowhow to develop the engine?

You'd have to assume that they'd just effectively become a customer? They then pay Honda whatever the cost of development is.

[John]

Does Red Bull even have the knowhow to develop the engine?

You'd have to assume that they'd just effectively become a customer? They then pay Honda whatever the cost of development is.

Well, it's either that, or bringing over key staff from Honda, or have Mugen step in and brand the engine and handle development, same as the deal was with the Jordan-Mugen engines in the late 1990's.

[Everso Biggyballies]

Renault and Ferrari will veto the no engine development suggestion.

As we have said above it seems Red Bull would be likely to proceed with doing the Honda engines after the factory withdraw at the end of next year. They said that it would be possible but only if their was a development freeze on engines from the start of 2022. They cannot afford the huge costs that would come from having to keep upgrading the engines.

Mercedes were very supportive of this and Toto Wolff indicated they would be happy for a development freeze on engines. Just what Red Bull wanted to hear. No doubt Mercedes were happy to do that knowing their current superiority and no doubt knowing what they have up their sleeve for next year.

Renault have joined Ferrari in saying they will veto any plans to curtail development.... bad news for Red Bull but but hardly a surprise especially Ferrari given their current status of being firmly last in the engine stakes. They both have ambitious development plans for their engines into the future to try and haul the Mercs in.

It is quite amusing though and a bit of a turnaround from Renault who had previously been supportive of restrictions. Cyril Abitofatool had a few things to say which highlight the Red Bull turn around on development in light of Honda's withdrawal. Horner was all for a development frenzy when it was Honda picking up the tab. Renault were forced into a development strategy. Now Horner wants the freeze he was so against a few months ago..

Cyril says his mind has changed from several months ago, when Red Bull stood up against such a freeze because it did not want Honda held back.

"If you had asked me six months ago, we would have pushed hard for an even lower cap budget, to try to contain the costs of the chassis, but also to reduce those related to the engine by accepting a freeze," said Abiteboul. "But Red Bull Racing and Honda were against it and we accepted it.

"So we continued on a different path. Since then, we have been very busy working on the 2022 engine platform and, if you ask me today what I think about freezing the engines, my position is clearly different from the one I had six months ago.

"I am against freezing the engines. We have no intention to stop what could be a very important platform for us. We do not accept it."

What goes round comes around. Be interesting to see the Red Bull reaction. Ironically if they now have to go to Renault as a customer if they cannot justify the in-house Honda project.

I can see Horner will now be sucking up to the FIA trying to get them to as he puts it "Get a grip and do what is right for the sport". So much of an about face from his position of spending someone elses money just a couple of months ago.

[MonteCristo]

I honestly don't get the point of a development freeze from RBR's perspective if the Honda engine is the second or third best engine...

A great way to continue losing to Mercedes.

[erwin greven]

I honestly don't get the point of a development freeze from RBR's perspective if the Honda engine is the second or third best engine...

A great way to continue losing to Mercedes.

Or they know that their chassis is the factor. That it is not the engine.

[Everso Biggyballies]

I honestly don't get the point of a development freeze from RBR's perspective if the Honda engine is the second or third best engine...

A great way to continue losing to Mercedes.

Or given that Honda have promised to continue developing the engine to its utmost right through to when they leave at the end of next season, the time which Horner wants to bring in the freeze. Maybe confident with upgrades and development Honda have promised, and he thinks will be more than the other 3 manus can garner.

Then when he has to start signing the engine cheques, get the development for all frozen. By which time he hopes Honda will have out-developed the others and closed the gap.

Coupled to a better chassis and aero from Newey than he produced this year.

[caneparo]

I honestly don't get the point of a development freeze from RBR's perspective if the Honda engine is the second or third best engine...

A great way to continue losing to Mercedes.

Or given that Honda have promised to continue developing the engine to its utmost right through to when they leave at the end of next season, the time which Horner wants to bring in the freeze. Maybe confident with upgrades and development Honda have promised, and he thinks will be more than the other 3 manus can garner.

Then when he has to start signing the engine cheques, get the development for all frozen. By which time he hopes Honda will have out-developed the others and closed the gap.

Coupled to a better chassis and aero from Newey than he produced this year.

Exactely. The most pathetic thing is that after red bull seeked a second best status for so long bashing ferrari and renault, this turnes tables on them. Well deserved for their disgusting arrogance

[MonteCristo]

I honestly don't get the point of a development freeze from RBR's perspective if the Honda engine is the second or third best engine...

A great way to continue losing to Mercedes.

Or given that Honda have promised to continue developing the engine to its utmost right through to when they leave at the end of next season, the time which Horner wants to bring in the freeze. Maybe confident with upgrades and development Honda have promised, and he thinks will be more than the other 3 manus can garner.

Then when he has to start signing the engine cheques, get the development for all frozen. By which time he hopes Honda will have out-developed the others and closed the gap.

Coupled to a better chassis and aero from Newey than he produced this year.

Yeah, I don't know. Merc wouldn't also be in favour if they didn't think they have more in the bag.

Essentially it's a giant gamble.

[Everso Biggyballies]

Red Bull and Honda confirm collaboration plans from 2022


Red Bull and Honda have revealed how the two organisations will work together after the Japanese manufacturer stops its official works involvement in Formula 1 at the end of 2021.

As expected Honda will continue to closely support the two Red Bull F1 teams in 2022, while the 2023 season will see a transition to full control of the power unit supply by the new Red Bull Powertrains division.

Some Honda Racing Development UK employees will transfer to Red Bull Powertrains helping to ensure continuity, while the two companies will also work together on projects outside F1.

In a statement Red Bull noted: “The diversification agreement will see the Red Bull group of companies and Honda work together on a variety of motorsport activities, encompassing the transition of power unit development from Honda to Red Bull Powertrains, young driver development, marketing and branding initiatives, as well as competitive activity across a range of motorsport disciplines.

“In F1, Red Bull Powertrains will have the right to use Honda IP relating to the Power Unit from 2022.

“Whilst Honda will support Red Bull Powertrains through the assembly of power units, the provision of trackside engineering support and race operation assistance in 2022, from 2023, RBPT will take responsibility for all manufacturing and servicing of Red Bull Racing and Scuderia AlphaTauri’s engines.

“Additionally, to ensure team continuity, there will be a transfer of Honda Racing Development UK employees to Red Bull Powertrains.”

Red Bull confirmed that its junior team and the Honda Formula Dream Project will continue to work together to find young Japanese drivers to follow in the footsteps of Yuki Tsunoda.

The two companies will also “expand their cooperation to create a joint presence in various forms of motorsport, in other sports and wider activities in order to broaden the reach of both brands and in particular promote Honda’s innovative mobility products to a broader audience and help the company achieve its stated aim of achieving carbon neutrality throughout its operations.”

Red Bull boss Christian Horner made it clear that the continued to support in 2022 will be extremely valuable.

“Red Bull’s collaboration with Honda has been enormously successful and while our relationship in F1 is changing, neither of us wish for that to be the end of the story,” he said.

“We are very pleased that our ambitious and exciting Red Bill Powertrains project will be strongly supported by Honda, technically and operationally, in 2022, and this will help ensure that Red Bull’s transition to the status of chassis and power unit manufacturer is seamless.”

Koji Watanabe, Honda’s chief officer for brand and communication operations, said: “I’m glad that we have reached an agreement with Red Bull Group covering all the details of the IP rights for the F1 Power Unit and in this way, Honda can still contribute to the motor racing world.

“We are now working hard to strengthen HRC’s structure, so that it can ensure our fans will be able to continue to enjoy Honda’s role in all types of motorsport.”


Honda also clarified that its four-wheeled motorsport activities, including its support of Red Bull in 2022, will now come under the umbrella of Honda Racing Corporation, the division responsible for the company’s motorcycle racing efforts.

Honda noted: “This is to strengthen Honda’s motorsport operation and branding, making it more efficient integrating the technologies and experiences we have gained from both four-wheel and motorcycle motorsport activities.”

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/red-b ... 2/6682301/

[DownForce]

Honda is leaving on High Note after all, perhaps they decided to leave 1 season too early.
Great job RB-Honda !

[MonteCristo]

Honda is leaving on High Note after all, perhaps they decided to leave 1 season too early.
Great job RB-Honda !

Certainly not impossible for history to repeat itself at this stage and for RBR to then win next year without Honda.

(This is known as CART karma.)

[Everso Biggyballies]

The thread title is now wrong......

Is it something to do with suddenly they have by association become world champions? Are they remembering their last bail out resulting in their car with Brawn logos taking F1 by storm the following year?

Anyway news breaking now.....

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

In a dramatic change of plan Honda will continue to supply power units to Red Bull directly from Japan until the end of the current Formula 1 regulations.

I thought something was odd when I read yesterday that the Honda F1 boss, Masashi Yamamoto has left Honda to set up his own consultancy in order to provide a bridge between Red Bull and Japan, further extending the continuity between the partners. Now today Red Bull wont be funding the engine development as planned. Honda are back on board until end 2025 when the current engines are replaced.

Honda ceased its official works involvement in the sport at the end of last season, and henceforth Red Bull is paying for its services, including the development of this year’s power unit for the move from E5 to E10 fuel.

The original strategy as announced late last year was that the new Red Bull Powertrains division would take complete power units from Honda, with full engineering support at the tracks, only in 2022.

Once RBP had got up to speed it would then build the engines from Honda parts at its Milton Keynes facility in 2023, 2024 and 2025 while simultaneously working on its own project for the new F1 rules that come into force in 2026.

However Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko has confirmed that the plan has changed, and the intention now is that Honda will continue to supply complete engines from Japan to RBR and AlphaTauri until the end of 2025.

The decision removes any concerns about issues such as quality control that might result from moving the building of the power units to the UK, while also freeing up RBP to focus more on its 2026 project.

The change has been made in part to ensure that RBP will still be a new participant when its own engine is introduced in 2026.

It will thus benefit from the concessions that are being discussed mainly to help encourage the VW Group to finally commit to F1, such as a higher power unit budget cap.

It’s understood that details of the new arrangements have yet to be finalised, and it’s not clear yet whether the engines will still be badged as Hondas until 2025, although such a move would be logical given the desire to ensure that RBP is a new participant in 2026.

“We have now also found a completely different solution to the one originally envisaged,” Marko told Autorevue magazine.

“The engines will be manufactured in Japan until 2025, we will not touch them at all. That means that the rights and all these things will remain with the Japanese, which is important for 2026 because it makes us newcomers.

Marko suggested that winning the 2021 world championship has encouraged Honda to remain closer to F1 than had been expected.

“In the course of our ever greater successes, a certain rethinking has taken place among the Japanese. And also that they could of course use the battery knowledge for their electrification phase.

“It was initially planned that they would only make our motors for 2022. Now it has been decided that this will continue until 2025, which is of course a huge advantage for us. This means we only have to make fine adjustments and calibrations.”

Regarding the building up of the RBP facility he added: “The prerequisite for this agreement was that engine development was frozen. Because the first phase would have been that we do everything ourselves. That's why we started in Milton Keynes and dutifully bought in from [dyno supplier] AVL.

“The plant will go into full operation in May/June. The final decision to do it ourselves was conditional on everything being frozen. Because otherwise we wouldn't have had a chance with this complex thing.”

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/honda ... 5/7677393/

[DoubleFart]

So, have Red Bull played a blinder here in getting the freeze, or not? It looks like Merc made a huge jump last year. I'm surprised Honda are willing to fight that fire.

[XcraigX]

Sounds great to me! The battle will continue (if the regulations don't make the RedBull or Mercedes non-competitive)!

[Aty]

I am late to the party, but allow me to dribble in a thought or two. Admittedly I haven't read whole thread for lack of time, thus forgive me if there is occasional repetition of what was already said.

To re-state obvious, Honda seems in rather precarious position (of its own making). After spending truck loads of money in the past, only recently to be awarded with a prominent racer put them in shame by pulling beach chair stunt next to race track. I am not however blaming Honda for debacle at McLaren. Odds were against them as they came years late, facing complex, rigid and non-competitive regulatory system.

For that flawed strategy McLaren is to blame in equal amount with Honda, getting them involved (IMO).

Today what do they archived? RBR is branding their winning engine (Brawn in the past), yet I think should they falter, Honda's name will come up (in not the very best way) in every second sentence, potentially facing another humiliation by being replaced as RBR is seeking a new engine partnership.

I love Honda brand (with others), but I am perplexed by some of their F1 related decisions, of which many are of dubious quality. It is difficult to understand that. I have been privileged to work with Utsunomiya guys for short little while (commuter sector), and they are all sharp shooters. Bright, dedicated, but F1...I do not understand leadership mindset behind it. Honda went into this with goal to develop and test hybrids as their primary objective. Maybe this objective, whilst not a bad one, alone was not a best one. Winning in F1 as target at the top would had been somewhat more appropriate, and maybe motivation to stay in today.