Fixing Formula 1

Current Formula One related news, information and discussion.
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MonteCristo
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Fixing Formula 1

Post by MonteCristo » 2 months ago



Time to build bridges, people.

Merc isn't to blame for being the best. But them being the best - continually for the last 6 years, the current year, and let's be honest next year as well - sucks unless you're a part of the Hamilton entourage.

The most seasons a constructor has ever won in a row is 6 - Ferrari and Mercedes, and Mercedes is now a shoe-in for 8.

Maybe 2022 won't change the results, even when the regulations change. Maybe Mercedes will dominate again - and if they did so for another 5-7 years, would enough people be left to care?

So is there a realistic way to fix things?

And yes, something does need to change, because between domination and dwindling TV numbers (whether that's due to domination or going behind a TV paywall or other things), F1 won't exist as it currently does much longer if people continue to stop watching. Sponsors will pull out, venues won't afford fees if people don't attend, manufacturers won't get ROI. It'll end up being Stroll Engineering vs Latifi Sports and maybe Schumacher Racing.
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Post by MonteCristo » 2 months ago

I think a problem is that the formula is so tightly controlled now. You cannot innovate to jump ahead even if you had the money to - which cannot be easily fixed at all.

You are effectively stuck with the base engine you have when you start a new formula, and can only make small incremental changes. At least they got rid of that insane token system from a few years ago - but it set the stage for the Mercedes dominance we have now.

But if a team or manufacturer wants to push forward now, you get penalised for changing your engine after a couple of races, or your gearbox, or practically anything else. It's bonkers. You either get it right at the start of the season, or you're done.

My massive concern is once the budget cap comes in, if somebody is clearly the better team or manufacturer, how will the others catch up?
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Post by White six » 1 month ago

18 inch tyres will fix it . 50 stop strategy. Maybe even the 2 hour rule implemented

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Post by White six » 1 month ago

MonteCristo wrote:
2 months ago


Time to build bridges, people.

Merc isn't to blame for being the best. But them being the best - continually for the last 6 years, the current year, and let's be honest next year as well - sucks unless you're a part of the Hamilton entourage.

The most seasons a constructor has ever won in a row is 6 - Ferrari and Mercedes, and Mercedes is now a shoe-in for 8.

Maybe 2022 won't change the results, even when the regulations change. Maybe Mercedes will dominate again - and if they did so for another 5-7 years, would enough people be left to care?

So is there a realistic way to fix things?

And yes, something does need to change, because between domination and dwindling TV numbers (whether that's due to domination or going behind a TV paywall or other things), F1 won't exist as it currently does much longer if people continue to stop watching. Sponsors will pull out, venues won't afford fees if people don't attend, manufacturers won't get ROI. It'll end up being Stroll Engineering vs Latifi Sports and maybe Schumacher Racing.
It's shoo-in FFS . Sorry just my pet hate message board error lol

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Post by PTRACER » 1 month ago

The cars are way too big and complicated aerodynamically. We had the issue with complicated aero back in 2007/8 and this was finally fixed for 2009. Now we have gone back in that direction again unnecessarily.

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Post by PTRACER » 1 month ago

Also here is what the Mercedes would look like without the floor, just showing how critical that area is. They could easily make the cars shorter and fatter again behind the driver.

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Post by MonteCristo » 1 month ago

PTRACER wrote:
1 month ago
Also here is what the Mercedes would look like without the floor, just showing how critical that area is. They could easily make the cars shorter and fatter again behind the driver.

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That's crazy!

Also, the amount of detail the floors have on the top of them these days with little aero bits is incredible.
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Post by DoubleFart » 1 month ago

Totally agree that the cars are too big. I'd much rather they were far shorter, even if they're a similar width.
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Post by PTRACER » 1 month ago

MonteCristo wrote:
1 month ago
PTRACER wrote:
1 month ago
Also here is what the Mercedes would look like without the floor, just showing how critical that area is. They could easily make the cars shorter and fatter again behind the driver.

Image
That's crazy!

Also, the amount of detail the floors have on the top of them these days with little aero bits is incredible.
Yep they are! Lots of little channels and turning vanes, which are all surely unregulated and unlimited in use:

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Post by XcraigX » 1 month ago

How much of that extra length in the 2020 is the fuel tank? 2007 we had refueling, so it's not quite a fair comparison.

As far a fixing..
Return to an engine liter limit, not a configuration mandate. Keep a limit on the total fuel allowed in the car. Let them manage it however they want (more efficient engine? carry less fuel weight...) Not sure if we want to keep the KERS and MGUH, etc.. as they just add complications and expense, but get rid of turbos at least (so we can hear the cars again).
Keep the standard tires for all teams and remove the requirement to use 2 compounds (can a team go faster with 3 soft stops instead of 2 stops on harder compounds?). Rim size at least 16 inches for less exotic brake cooling and material (the current chase with the 13 inchers).
Keep the wing size/location limitation. Keep the ban on aero bits on the main body. Get rid of the floor extension (it ALWAYS gets damaged when a car gets a flat). No more DRS. No more VSC. No diffusers. Flat bottoms allowed. No skirts.
Allow testing again. Not sure exactly how to control this, but maybe a spend limitation. If you want to use the full team and an FIA track, it will buy you less days than testing at field track (or Ferrari's home track).
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Post by Michkov » 1 month ago

An energy limit as far as engines go. Last time it did the numbers I think I came up with 4.5TJ for 300km being the energy in the 100kg of pump petrol, that was when the turbos came in, so lets say 4 for the future to push for more efficient engines. That's it as far as engines are regulated.
I'd like to see how the 2022 aero regs work out before making a call on that, but I generally underbody areo with a simple front and rear wing is my preferred direction.

Sporting wise I'd allow customer cars with the teams being free to modify their cars and engines as they please. Similar to how CART ran in the 90s. That would be coupled to a strict budget limit of X€ where X is an amount of money so that a team can survive on the TV money. With the budget cap in place there is no reason to keep material and testing restrictions so they go the way of the Dodo.

Tyres will be bought by the teams not the series.

Track limits will be strictly enforced, this is pretty much a no brainer since every car has a camera and all tracks are delimited by white line. That should have been automated years ago.

And for the slightly insane ideas:

Qualy will be single lap with order determined by P3 times, fastest picking their spot first.
Maximum weight will be 100kg, for the driver and seat. With the car still requiring to pass all the crash test as specified.
Rain races will be red flagged iff the medivac helo can't take off anymore.
Teams get 4*y tyres per race, not sets. They are fully allowed to mix them.
Inters are outlawed, cutting slicks isn't.
Car to pits data transfer is only allowed via physical connection.

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Post by caneparo » 1 month ago

I admire your technical knowledge I did 1 year of engendering at uni just to realise my talent was better on the economic side. I am not able to get in depth of a technical receip or proposal to “fix” the rules. However I hardly doubt fia would consider it.
I instead make a reflection on what Grand Prix racing should be and what has become with this formula. What we see now are the fastest sleekest most technological car ever made for motor racing. The pay off is a 7 years long single chord symphony where only once the title was decided at the last race and it was between the drivers of the same winning team. We all know that formula 1 has never been the best testing ground for manufacturing so why all this technology? Racing doesn’t need technology to be interesting. Racing is competition and if the regulation do not ensure a certain levelling of the car different performance, then it failed its own goal. Someone points on aero the issue of this car generation but eventually it is not. These are power unit issues, there are cars so underpowered (lets take Ferrari pu pays 80hp to Mercedes) which will never competitive.
So I don’t know the recipe to “fix” but I still think and make a provocation. If stripping down all those devices will surely level the field and reduce costs why this solution wasn’t yet even talked about? Because constructors will not accept to see their value to be reduced at mere trade mark symbol on the car. But today we are at a point that a single team is dictating the rule of the game, in change of all the investments made on the hybrid formula and pu supplies to a fixed number of client teams. The attempt to have at least a big constructor in formula turned to give Mercedes a huge initial advantage. The issues is that now toto liked the game and wants the all in and also the cash in. For Todt this formula 1 flagged by a big constructor is a perfect sponsor for his political affair. With such a strong link Whathever the rule change is, to make its effect, Toto Wolf should accept losing for at least a year. I don’t think he will accept as he tries to emerge more and more as a dominant political force in the f1 circus. He wants to be the one to decide when other team will win and which would be the team that would be granted such an honour.
As a metter of fact there would be a way to start giving an image that things would change and it would be lifting the testing ban. Stressing more Mercedes to show its own potential instead of keeping development steps in the pocket as the do now. But this is not even in talks. Why? Ask jean todt (And maybe also toto wolf).
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Post by White six » 1 month ago

caneparo wrote:
1 month ago
I admire your technical knowledge I did 1 year of engendering at uni just to realise my talent was better on the economic side. I am not able to get in depth of a technical receip or proposal to “fix” the rules. However I hardly doubt fia would consider it.
I instead make a reflection on what Grand Prix racing should be and what has become with this formula. What we see now are the fastest sleekest most technological car ever made for motor racing. The pay off is a 7 years long single chord symphony where only once the title was decided at the last race and it was between the drivers of the same winning team. We all know that formula 1 has never been the best testing ground for manufacturing so why all this technology? Racing doesn’t need technology to be interesting. Racing is competition and if the regulation do not ensure a certain levelling of the car different performance, then it failed its own goal. Someone points on aero the issue of this car generation but eventually it is not. These are power unit issues, there are cars so underpowered (lets take Ferrari pu pays 80hp to Mercedes) which will never competitive.
So I don’t know the recipe to “fix” but I still think and make a provocation. If stripping down all those devices will surely level the field and reduce costs why this solution wasn’t yet even talked about? Because constructors will not accept to see their value to be reduced at mere trade mark symbol on the car. But today we are at a point that a single team is dictating the rule of the game, in change of all the investments made on the hybrid formula and pu supplies to a fixed number of client teams. The attempt to have at least a big constructor in formula turned to give Mercedes a huge initial advantage. The issues is that now toto liked the game and wants the all in and also the cash in. For Todt this formula 1 flagged by a big constructor is a perfect sponsor for his political affair. With such a strong link Whathever the rule change is, to make its effect, Toto Wolf should accept losing for at least a year. I don’t think he will accept as he tries to emerge more and more as a dominant political force in the f1 circus. He wants to be the one to decide when other team will win and which would be the team that would be granted such an honour.
As a metter of fact there would be a way to start giving an image that things would change and it would be lifting the testing ban. Stressing more Mercedes to show its own potential instead of keeping development steps in the pocket as the do now. But this is not even in talks. Why? Ask jean todt (And maybe also toto wolf).
Tbf testing would make it worse for the smaller teams and better for Mercedes, RB and Ferrari. Just the visits to the track are expensive. It plays to the bigger budgets

They can barely fit testing in the calendar now too, unless you do it with reserve drivers. But then you lose the experience of the elders feedback

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Post by White six » 1 month ago

Just been watching 1981 Belgium. The distance the cars follow each other at is astonishing to today's eyes. Pironi Reutemann Piquet Jones with about a second covering them (inevitably led to Jones shunting Piquet off). It looks faster than today, even though that's a false impression and 100x more exciting

Hopefully fixed in 2022

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Post by PTRACER » 1 month ago

XcraigX wrote:
1 month ago
How much of that extra length in the 2020 is the fuel tank? 2007 we had refueling, so it's not quite a fair comparison.
It's all exhaust and gearbox:

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