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CANADIAN GP 2019

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Mawerick
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Re: CANADIAN GP 2019

Post by Mawerick » 6 days ago

Latest post of the previous page:

John wrote:
6 days ago
Mawerick wrote:
6 days ago
Vettel was not in control of the car when he came back on track. Based on this penalty, I'm fully expecting similar penalties will be delivered to drivers who come back to the track sideways or even upside down, missing an engine.
I would not, because that is a crash and a crash is a different thing all together. That is reductio ad absurdum.
I was being sarcastic.
John wrote:
6 days ago

Why wasn't everybody up in arms over this? Hell. Looking through the Japanese GP thread from last year the consensus seems to be that Max getting slapped with five seconds was warranted. Explain to me like I've gone through a lobotomy why there's a difference.
How can you even compare the incidents? Max was fully in control of his car, going rather slowly and just decided to drive back onto track the way he did. Vettel did what he did because he had no other choice.
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Post by Vassago » 6 days ago

But FIA compared the incidents and that's enough. It's like the old saying from football, penalty kick is not what you see in the stands, it's what referee sees on the field :tongue:
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Post by kals » 6 days ago

Former world champion Nico Rosberg says Sebastian Vettel's penalty in the Canadian Grand Prix was "absolutely fully deserved".
While many fans think the FIA was wrong to punish Vettel for rejoining the track in an unsafe manner and forcing Lewis Hamilton off the circuit, Rosberg has an alternative view.

He believes that Vettel had enough opportunity to get back on the circuit without impeding Hamilton, after the Ferrari driver had run across the grass at the first chicane on lap 48.

Speaking on his YouTube channel, Rosberg said: "Vettel was screaming 'I had dirt on my tyres, I was out of control, where do you want me to go? I was struggling to control the car, and I couldn't see Lewis.'

"Okay great. But Lewis is there. The rule says when you go off the track, you need to rejoin safely. So Vettel went all the way across and I think he could have easily left a little bit more space, especially in the latter phase like after Lewis started braking. He could easily have left more space, but he didn't.

"He went right, right, all the way there and left hardly any space to Lewis. And so Lewis saw it as a dangerous situation because Vettel was coming more and more, so he had to back out of it.

"I looked at the replay many, many times. Lewis would have been in the wall had he stayed there because right afterwards Vettel continued to move over more and more and it was so tight that Lewis would have touched either Vettel or the wall.

"So it is very, very clear that unfortunately it was an unsafe return to the track. That is the rule. You have to return safely and that is the way it is. A penalty is deserved in that case."

Rosberg said he had spoken to his father Keke about the incident, and reckoned that even suggestions Vettel was not entirely at fault did not stand up.

"My father said to me, 'It's probably 60/40 – 60 penalty, 40 not.' I asked, 'why 40 not?' 'Well, because he was just out of control and he could not do better than that because he had dirt on his tyres and was coming from the grass and everything'.

"I said, 'Okay, fine I know that. But so what? You still have to return safely and if you are out of control then you are not returning safely.'

"So that is it. Penalty deserved. It is not a valid excuse: 'Oh I was out of control, I had dirty tyres and I couldn't see Lewis.' It is not a valid excuse unfortunately. So the penalty is full deserved. Absolutely full[y] deserved penalty."

Rosberg was also critical of the way that Vettel let the emotions of his anger at the penalty get the better of him both during the race and afterwards.

"Instead of complaining on the radio when a decision is made, which you know you cannot influence any more any way, he just keeps complaining and complaining rather than just focusing on the damn driving and trying to get those five seconds out, when he was already at 3.3 seconds," added the former Mercedes driver.

"Damn! Like just focus – and nail those laps. You have a chance there still to win this thing.

"That was a weakness again from Vettel. He has such strong self belief and always thinks that he is in the right, and then always wants to blame other people. And then he just loses focus in those moments, and doesn't make the most of it.

"That was not great to see from him. And then after the race, all those gestures and disrespectful comments calling the stewards 'blind' men and all that. It is just unnecessary. It is not very good."

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Post by erwin greven » 6 days ago

kals wrote:
6 days ago
"I said, 'Okay, fine I know that. But so what? You still have to return safely and if you are out of control then you are not returning safely.'
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Post by Circuitmaster » 6 days ago

Consistency is always going to be difficult, because there are so many factors to consider. Speed, control, intent, etc.

I've said it before: if we want consistency, we need to do away with driver penalties completely. Not 'except for when..', no, completely. Good idea? I don't know. But you'd get consistency. And the only incentive a driver would have to drive sensibly would be safety and reputation, which should be enough.
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Post by DoubleFart » 6 days ago

Nico Rosberg, rival to only Jaques Villeneuve for most undeserving Champion, goes against the opinion of every other motorsport name i've seen on Twitter, from Button and Andretti to the Wurz and to the Coronels and Van Der Garde's of this world.
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Post by sadsac » 6 days ago

:twothumbs: Image :twothumbs:

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Post by kals » 6 days ago

DoubleFart wrote:
6 days ago
Nico Rosberg, rival to only Jaques Villeneuve for most undeserving Champion, goes against the opinion of every other motorsport name i've seen on Twitter, from Button and Andretti to the Wurz and to the Coronels and Van Der Garde's of this world.
Rosberg's justification is that Vettel was out of control when he forced Hamilton wide. It's something Rosberg is uniquely aware of as he himself was always in complete control of his car when forcing Lewis and other rivals off the circuit.

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Post by XcraigX » 5 days ago

kals wrote:
6 days ago
DoubleFart wrote:
6 days ago
Nico Rosberg, rival to only Jaques Villeneuve for most undeserving Champion, goes against the opinion of every other motorsport name i've seen on Twitter, from Button and Andretti to the Wurz and to the Coronels and Van Der Garde's of this world.
Rosberg's justification is that Vettel was out of control when he forced Hamilton wide. It's something Rosberg is uniquely aware of as he himself was always in complete control of his car when forcing Lewis and other rivals off the circuit.
:agreepost:

The irony was so thick I left a funny taste in my mouth just from reading his comments.

I think the penalty was consistent with others handed out. But I don't like these rules/penalties because they seem subjective. There may be objective evidence, but it's not transparent to the fans.

One thing I've had a chance to think about is whether Vettel applying throttle during his grass-capade led to him coming back on out of control. Had he let off a bit more, he would have had the car under control during his return to the circuit.

However, it sure seems like he was looking in the mirror the entire time he was drifting to the right (as if to check the position of the driver behind). My gut is telling me there is more to this story.

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Post by MonteCristo » 5 days ago

Mawerick wrote:
6 days ago
John wrote:
6 days ago
Mawerick wrote:
6 days ago
Vettel was not in control of the car when he came back on track. Based on this penalty, I'm fully expecting similar penalties will be delivered to drivers who come back to the track sideways or even upside down, missing an engine.
I would not, because that is a crash and a crash is a different thing all together. That is reductio ad absurdum.
I was being sarcastic.
John wrote:
6 days ago

Why wasn't everybody up in arms over this? Hell. Looking through the Japanese GP thread from last year the consensus seems to be that Max getting slapped with five seconds was warranted. Explain to me like I've gone through a lobotomy why there's a difference.
How can you even compare the incidents? Max was fully in control of his car, going rather slowly and just decided to drive back onto track the way he did. Vettel did what he did because he had no other choice.
Kimi was also completely alongside, not just front wheel to rear wheel.
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Post by MonteCristo » 5 days ago

kals wrote:
6 days ago
MonteCristo wrote:
6 days ago
The countless times drivers cut the track, retained their position, and it was judged to be A-Okay, makes this decision bullshit.
6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. Every situation is different and no situation is the same.

Debate is what is going to happen whether we agree with the decision or not. While I don't believe the incident was penalty worthy, I can understand and appreciate why it was handed out. And at the same time, considering the sheer number of incidents that Vettel has not be penalised for over the years this does appear to be some form of karmic retribution.

Being brutally honest this is a fascinating situation. It's a great talking point. It's creating interest and engagement amongst F1 fans. There has been a catalog of (what we feel are) bad decisions over the years so this is not a unique incident. It's perfectly fine for us to agree to disgaree and it's perfectly fine for people to be unhappy with what transpired. Soon enough this incident will just become another metric is questionable stewarding decisions and we'll be debating the next incident.
Frankly, this is a far less egregious incident than something like that year when Schumacher deliberately straight-lined a chicane two or three times at Hungary I think every time someone (in a McLaren?) tried passing him. Or doing the same at the final corner at Canada a few times, all without penalty.

At least this was a genuine mistake, as much as I dislike both Vettel and Ham (and this is in no way Hamilton's fault - if I were driving, I'd have a whinge and get on the radio that moment as well). Schumacher was just a prick's prick.
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 days ago

I must admit I did snigger when Seb changed the position of the 1,2,3 numbers of the cars beneath the podium, putting the #1 in front of where his car should have been. A typical Vettel hissy fit, but amusing none the less.
No doubt he will get fined for that. Cant have emotions in F1 nowadays! :wink:

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 4 days ago

Final comment re the penalty.... amusing hypocritical statement from Lewis on the podium, stating "All I can say is, I didn't make the decision."

True, he did not make the decision, but he did immediately ask the team on the radio to get the incident highlighted to the stewards for a potential penalty though. :roll:

Maybe Lewis has a short memory.... in this Monaco 2016 incident no penalty was given.


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Post by PTRACER » 4 days ago

MonteCristo wrote:
5 days ago
Mawerick wrote:
6 days ago
John wrote:
6 days ago
Mawerick wrote:
6 days ago
Vettel was not in control of the car when he came back on track. Based on this penalty, I'm fully expecting similar penalties will be delivered to drivers who come back to the track sideways or even upside down, missing an engine.
I would not, because that is a crash and a crash is a different thing all together. That is reductio ad absurdum.
I was being sarcastic.
John wrote:
6 days ago

Why wasn't everybody up in arms over this? Hell. Looking through the Japanese GP thread from last year the consensus seems to be that Max getting slapped with five seconds was warranted. Explain to me like I've gone through a lobotomy why there's a difference.
How can you even compare the incidents? Max was fully in control of his car, going rather slowly and just decided to drive back onto track the way he did. Vettel did what he did because he had no other choice.
Kimi was also completely alongside, not just front wheel to rear wheel.
Just to contribute to this. Max did his best to stay on the track despite already being on that green stuff (whatever it is). Most other drivers would accept they missed the corner and would have gone straight on. Max tried to follow the contours of the track (maybe so he wasn't judged to have cut the corner) but Kimi had decided to go around him. So it's Kimi's own fault he got squeezed.

I probably said it then and I will say it again now. Max DID NOT deserve the penalty. If Kimi hadn't put his nose in there Max would have been unpunished.
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Post by Vassago » 4 days ago

This is racing though, when you see a driver in front of you make such a big mistake of course you want to pounce on it esp. in the era where overtaking is so difficult. You can't expect Kimi to slam on the brakes and kindly allow Verstappen to recover his spot :tongue:
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Post by PTRACER » 4 days ago

Vassago wrote:
4 days ago
This is racing though, when you see a driver in front of you make such a big mistake of course you want to pounce on it esp. in the era where overtaking is so difficult. You can't expect Kimi to slam on the brakes and kindly allow Verstappen to recover his spot :tongue:
Exactly, but as I say, if Kimi WASN'T going for that gap then Max would have been fine.

Here are the steward's words for Verstappen:
The Stewards reviewed the video evidence, and determined that car 33 locked up his brakes and left the track at turn 16, cut the chicane and rejoined track on the racing line in turn 17 and in the process collided with car 7
He didn't collide with Raikkonen because he rejoined unsafely. He collided with Raikkonen because Raikkonen put his car in harm's way.

Similarly, the explanation for Vettel at Montreal:
The stewards reviewed video evidence and determined that Car 5,left the track at turn 3, rejoined the track at turn 4 in an unsafe manner and forced car 44 off track. Car 44 had to take evasive action to avoid a collision.
Again, similarly, Hamilton took the risk and put his car in harm's way. Imagine if Vettel had rejoined the track sideways and out of control? They would have both collided and we would all be saying Hamilton should have slowed down and been more cautious rather than trying to force his way past.
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